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Hostage Situations Tied to Paris Charlie Hebdo Massacre


D'Artagnon

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Instead of major attacks, I bet we see more of these smaller, targeted ones in the future. Harder to defend against and sows terror at a personal, local level. I don't wish to be a "doomsayer", but as I get older, I find myself looking at the state of the world and am more pessimistic than optimistic.

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Instead of major attacks, I bet we see more of these smaller, targeted ones in the future. Harder to defend against and sows terror at a personal, local level. I don't wish to be a "doomsayer", but as I get older, I find myself looking at the state of the world and am more pessimistic than optimistic.

I was in High School when 9/11 hit, and the first real thought I had on it other than the standard horror/shock reactions was how stupid it was, tactically.  Take the same resources, devote them to building a half dozen driver/sniper teams, and target random schoolyards, churches, supermarkets... you could sow some real terror that way, instead of just pissing the US off.  (Of course, the real idea was to 'inspire' the middle east as a whole to engage in a jihad, but...)  You'd also do a much better job at directly attacking the constitution by supporting the anti-gun law nuts.

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I agree, Zergrinch, it did have lasting influence.. We were pretty much niave then and got rudely awakened.. But major targets are now pretty well defended or at least will give terrorists second thoughts. So instead they may turn to smaller targets...

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There are times I simply want to wall in the middle east, shut down all travel in or out and let them go about happily killing each other.  Afghanistan is known in history as the Graveyard of Empires.  Ask Alexander and the Soviet Union about that.  Any society that can stop the mechanized might of Mother Russia with a bunch of uneducated barbarians chasing around the hills and caves, should never be taken lightly, and should likely have never been armed by the West (yes, CIA, I'm looking at you, too)

 

The western powers are simply too foreign and alien to the radicalized Muslim Extremists.  We live in the here and now, they want to live in the past.  They get angry over a tiny cartoon.  I'm sorry, but God, or his prophets and saints and holy men should be bigger than to be offended by a mere drawing to the point of killing.  If your religious zeal is so easily frustrated, this world will likely be a difficult place to live.

 

I was always told that God is love.  Not that God's people were divided by a centuries old dispute over whether or not Mohammed's heir should rule Islam, the key differentiation between the now ethnic and sectarian groups the Shiites and the Sunnis.  That divide is so deep and so covered in blood that Muslims have been killing each other in that conflict almost since the founding of the religion.

 

Islam, as most practice it, is a peaceful religion, focusing on harmony with nature, respect for your fellow man and protecting the family.  In many ways, despite differences in creed and practice, it is very similar to most Christian sects.  As with all things, it is the crazy ones at the fringes that give bad reputation to those nearer the center.  When the "word of God" is perverted, twisted or "edited" to suit a given individual's rather extreme point of view, suddenly you give people a blank check to do anything they want in the name of God.  Since the Crusades and the Rape of the New World (the Conquistadores), that justification was used.  History is likely full of similar stories. 

 

The question is, can we educate people so they don't repeat history's mistakes, or will showing someone a little knowledge be that dangerous enough thing that lets more radical fanatics think they've got the green light to drop planes on buildings or walk into a newspaper and blow away people who disagree with a given point of view?  I worry, my brothers, that eventually it will come to the point that only extreme measures will be required to counter such extremism.  We're already pretty close.

 

I don't mind telling you, this has me worried.

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In terms of economic damage though, that wouldn't come close. Four multimillion dollar planes, two multiBILLION dollar buildings, almost 3000 fatalities, a lasting wound in America's psyche, and permanent changes in the convenience if air travel.

I love how you include the 300 fatalities as part of 'economic' damage.

 

That said, the strategy I outlines would still cost a horrendous amount -- hundreds of thousands if not more for each sniper 'team', with potentially hundreds of victims each before they get taken down.  If they focused on mobility, rather than staying in one specific area, they could have attacked and moved on before the police could hem them in.  To fight them would take massive numbers of officers, and if you think the restriction on air travel is bad just imagine the restrictions we'd have to impose on automobile travel to try to catch them.  Add in the wave of copy-cats and I"d argue that the damage to America's psyche would have been far, far, far worse.

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It is physically impossible to guard against and protect against terrorist attacks such as the world has suffered the last few years. The only thing that can be done is to make the punishment for such acts so terrible, so extreme that those who would commit such crimes will hesitate  to do it again.

 

That would entail punishment so terrible, the perpetrators and ALL their kin would cease to exist, every man, woman and child to whom they are related, all those whom they love and hold dear are made to cease existing. A punishment so terrible that even the most bloodthirsty extremist would fear!

 

This sounds horrible, but remember, that is exactly what they are doing to us. I am not, as a rule, a bloodthirsty person, but, there are times when fire must be fought with more fire and this is one of those times. There are many who will disagree with me and even condemn me for my thoughts, but nothing else has ever slowed these people down. I accept your criticism in advance and would gladly accept and support any other solution you might have that has any chance of succeeding.

 

Charles Bird

Sea Bird

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They are included. They died prematurely so you have to include their lost productivity and future earnings when tallying up economic damage.

I'm not convinced that sniper teams would result in the same amount of damage. Here are my reasons:

1. Spree shootings are not a foreign concept in America if you consider the early gangland 20th century. Planes into buildings, totally new. So I argue the terror from having crazies shooting you up is far outweighed by fears of something horrible happening in airplanes.

2. Cheaper to get box cutters than a car and sniper rifles.

3. More points of failure with discrete teams of shooters (someone with a gun might take them out prematurely, or someone buying multiple sniper rifles might raise red flags. Remember one of the terrorists who learned piloting was already on a watch list.)

4. I think damage to car travel or gun ownership won't be as severe as you fear. Consider the administration at the time was Republican.

5. Damage inflicted, no contest. Lost two iconic buildings. Plunged into recession. Air Travel in the States now is horrible.

I concede short term hysteria may be higher in your scenario, but the long term ramifications of the airplane plan would be, and are much more considerable.

I love how you include the 300 fatalities as part of 'economic' damage.

That said, the strategy I outlines would still cost a horrendous amount -- hundreds of thousands if not more for each sniper 'team', with potentially hundreds of victims each before they get taken down. If they focused on mobility, rather than staying in one specific area, they could have attacked and moved on before the police could hem them in. To fight them would take massive numbers of officers, and if you think the restriction on air travel is bad just imagine the restrictions we'd have to impose on automobile travel to try to catch them. Add in the wave of copy-cats and I"d argue that the damage to America's psyche would have been far, far, far worse.

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Sea Bird, not sure that a fanatic who is sure they are going to Paradise as a martyr, will care about what will happen to their family, as they will be "martyrs" too. Is there a punishment too great for someome who does not care because they are going to Paradise or Heaven?

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1. Spree shootings are not a foreign concept in America if you consider the early gangland 20th century. Planes into buildings, totally new. So I argue the terror from having crazies shooting you up is far outweighed by fears of something horrible happening in airplanes.

2. Cheaper to get box cutters than a car and sniper rifles.

3. More points of failure with discrete teams of shooters (someone with a gun might take them out prematurely, or someone buying multiple sniper rifles might raise red flags. Remember one of the terrorists who learned piloting was already on a watch list.)

4. I think damage to car travel or gun ownership won't be as severe as you fear. Consider the administration at the time was Republican.

5. Damage inflicted, no contest. Lost two iconic buildings. Plunged into recession. Air Travel in the States now is horrible.

I concede short term hysteria may be higher in your scenario, but the long term ramifications of the airplane plan would be, and are much more considerable.

1)  Spree shootings are not foreign, but they tend to be localized.  Please note the washington sniper, who caused a significant, if localized, degree of havok.  The approach I invisaged would ahve been non-localised -- hit once or at most twice inside a given town or city, then relocate.  Relocate to a random new town before resuming, generating no obvious pattern or trail.

 

2)  Box cutters + putting several of hte hijackers through flight school, as I recall.

 

3)  More individual points of failure, but such a group wouldn't be subject to any single point of failure.  Any one team failing would only lead to that team failing.

 

4) We're going to have to disagree on this one. 

 

5) Physical damage does not compare to psychological.  As you yourself noted, much higher short-term hysteria.  And the results of the short-term hysteria we did have was things like the PATRIOT act.  And in this scenario, many of the victims would have been children, not adults.  Please note how much sheer stupidity gets passed into the law under the rallying cry 'think of the children!'  While the direct, physical damage to our economy would be infinitely less, the long-term repercussions would have been much, much higher.  Especially since this type of attack would be subject to copycats.

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Mark C.,

 

I agree that simply "disposing" of the individual terrorist and sending him/her/it to "paradise" is not going to solve the problem, but even a fanatic Muslim "Martyr" values, at least, his boy children. I would hesitate to say, "Kill all his children" along with himself, but it MAY come to that. An alternative, perhaps, would be to take his children and raise them as Christians? To him, then, his boy children would be dead and he would leave no legacy for the "Prophet". They have no real concern for their wives or girl children.

 

I don't have any magic solutions, but it is fast coming down to them or us. It is obvious that they will not or cannot live on the same planet with the rest of us and these acts of violence and terrorism are going to continue and will grow in monstrosity as time goes by. We think that 9/11 was the ultimate horror and, as terrible as that was, there is so much more they can do to us that would make that act of terrorism seem like child's play.

 

 

Let me put out just one possibility. Remember, many Muslims are as technology up to date as we are. How about a nice Ebola plague right here in our country. It would be easy to do and easy to bring it home to us, they need merely to step across the border anywhere between California and Texas, posing as poor Mexicans. Even Canada is easily bypassed in the north. I have read that there is certain factual evidence that people from the "sand countries" have already crossed from Mexico and are living here right now. I have not actually seen that, but I live in Arizona and see the pack trains crossing the ridge above my home most every night.

 

IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME!

 

 

Charles Bird

Sea Bird

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Sea Bird, I agree it is only a matter of time. It may be Islamists, it may be Chechnan separatists, it may be Ukranian rebels, but some group or someone will get thier hands on a WMD and use it. It may be nuclear, chemical or biological but one day it will happen. I really fear for the future of mankind. Resource depletion, over population, our human natures....

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There are many who say that the Muslim Jihadists are not human and, in a sense, they are correct. It takes more than a few strands of DNA and a box of chromosomes to make a human. It takes a mind that is HUMAN and that is what these individuals lack. Not intelligence, it requires an acceptance to join with the human family.

 

Until these creatures can be accepted into the Human Race, they must learn to act and walk the human line. So far, they have shown no intent in doing so, therefore, we have two choices. The first choice is to wipe them out completely as we would a disease. The only other choice we have is to cage them up like wild beasts in a zoo and prevent them from breeding until none remain.

 

 

If we do not do this, we are doomed to suffer their attacks, which will grow worse as time goes by. They have no concern for themselves or their own progeny and they will depopulate our planet, leaving it a lifeless ball of mud, completely devoid of intelligent life.

 

 

We must make a decision soon, they are already well on the way to developing the nuclear ability to wipe all life from the face of the Earth!

 

Charles Bird

Sea Bird

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