Looking for advice

[ken barber]

A conversation recently started in the submission thread and I want to get some elaboration on a point here.

 

I do not do major description of my character and many authors seem to. I am wondering if any has more input, as a reader do you prefer to be told exactly how a character looks or do you prefer to let your imagination create an image. 

 

If you have read "Cyclone" or "Dawns Early Light" let me know what you think about the character development and description.

 

Ken B

[Zach Caldwell]

As a reader, I like to build an image of the character in my mind. Some information about the character helps to build that image. There have been instances where a writer is so descriptive of a character and as I am reading, I think to myself, the description does not fit with what I envision about the character.

 

I would argue that at times less is more. Ultimately, I am not sure that being overly or less descriptive of a character is all that important. The strength of the overall story is more important.

 

It will be interesting to see what other readers think.

[ken barber]

Thanks Zack, Yes I would love to hear from other readers and writers on this as well.

[Hunter]

Ken,

 

Well I think it sort of depends on the author.  Everyone has their own unique style of writing and this is one aspect of it.  I tend to be very descriptive of my characters.  I create complete profiles of my characters using a template I designed before I even begin to write.  I'm a very visually oriented type of person so I need images or description in writing of my characters so I have something to refer to as I write.  My profiles of my characters though aren't confined only to the physical attributes of them but other things as well.  Things such as personality, hobbies, interests, sports, a whole range of things that make a person who they are in my stories.

 

Like I said I tend to be very descriptive in my stories where I give a general type of build, their facial attributes, hair color, eye color, etc..., but I tend to do it in stages.  Some of my characters may have long wavy hair, curly hair, short cropped hair with maybe a rounded face, oval shaped face, triangular shaped one, you name it and it can be described.  You can keep the description in general terms at times and at other times become more specific.

 

I tend to do it in stages but I also make sure I do it earlier on when I'm introducing a character so my readers have a general idea of what I am trying to get them to visualize.  What I've found is that even if you become specific with how you describe a character everyone will still have their own image of how a character will look.  I mean you can say that a character has shoulder length blond colored hair that tumbles over the ears like a wave crashing on to a beach and just about everyone will visualize that hair in a different kind of way yet still have a general likeness of how they all view the character.  You can say a person is a bit on the pudgy side and everyone will visualize that differently as well.

 

The important thing in my opinion is that some sort of description has to be made so a reader gets a general sense of the character you are describing.  You can make these descriptions in a very specific kind of way or in a generalized kind of way, but something has to be said in order to get a reader's imagination going.  It's kind of interesting how a writer can be very specific in describing a person all the way down to a little pinprick sized mole on a person's upper lip and it becoming completely different in a reader's mind with how they visualize in the way that would look on their character.

 

I enjoy providing very detailed descriptions to try conveying the overall appearance of how I visualize a character hoping my readers will get the gist of what I'm visualizing while also realizing that even though I am being very specific the readers will also draw in their mind's eye their own version of what I'm describing in a way they find pleasing.  So in this regard I end up providing my readers a fairly in debth description with how I visualize my characters letting them get the gist of it while also allowing them to still imagine it in their own terms as well.

 

In my opinion adding these kinds of details adds depth to my characters just like letting my readers know that one of my characters enjoys taking piano lessons twice a week, or is into dirt bike riding, or is very shy or outgoing, or any other number of things that make my characters who they are.  Describing a character's features is one aspect of bringing alive the people in our stories for our readers.  It is up to the author in the way they do this.

 

I tend to slowly build up my characters in the story as I go along.  Just like in real life we discover more and more about people in our lives because it is a progression.  We learn things as time goes on and doing the same for our characters in our stories makes it more realistic.

[Rilbur]

The only helpful advice I can give is that any description you give needs to be organic, part of the story and not pasted in just to describe.  Nothing turns me off of a story faster than getting hit with a three-paragraph blurb describing every last hair, mole, and freckle on the main character's body.  Or worse yet, doing it for the entire cast.

 

And by 'organic', I don't mean have the character inspect himself in a mirror just to be inspecting himself in a mirror.  That's lazy.  Organic is stuff like a character running a hand through his thick, black hair when thinking, or having him struck the beauty of her long, brown hair when he first meets his lady-love-to-be.  (Both examples of how, brushstroke by brushstroke, Terry Goodkind slowly built up his character's in Wizard's First Rule)

[JoeWriterMan]

What I tend to place a great deal of emphasis on is a character's personality, not so much their physical attributes, at least from the character's point of view.  Most of the time I will (hopefully) permit another character to describe each character using their perspective.  It's a bit complicated, and is not something I spend a whole lot of time analyzing.

 

Recently I was requested to give a spreadsheet of names, ages (including birth date), orientation, physical attributes, chapter # of first appearance and a brief note about them.  I found, while rereading my chapters, that I had omitted most attributes altogether!  This not what I intended to do!  So I made them up.  Sue me.

 

Like Hunter, I am a very visual person. Although I will often use a physical picture of a character to write from, in general.  And, their eyes tell me a story about their personality... I either 'dig it' or I don't.

 

It's my opinion that characters 'tell' the story - their actions, reactions, responses, eye movements, facial expressions is the whole thing.  I write about events then the characters bring it alive.  Doing this in my chapter 4 of Centennial got me so deep into Luke and Jordan's personalities based on events that happened to them that I was useless for a couple of weeks.  It was like I was right there with them - in their heads. I did the same thing in 17 - only this was completely on the other side of the coin - it was sweet writing!  There's my teaser.  I shall leave it alone, now.

 

Event driven fiction stories drive me to distraction.  Without character development, I'm not a loyal reader.  This is just me.  It is no reflection on any particular author or particular story.

[Hunter]

 

It's my opinion that characters 'tell' the story - their actions, reactions, responses, eye movements, facial expressions is the whole thing.  I write about events then the characters bring it alive.  Doing this in my chapter 4 of Centennial got me so deep into Luke and Jordan's personalities based on events that happened to them that I was useless for a couple of weeks.  It was like I was right there with them - in their heads. I did the same thing in 17 - only this was completely on the other side of the coin - it was sweet writing!  There's my teaser.  I shall leave it alone, now.

 

 

Yes writerman it is the same for me when I write.  I get so involved with my characters actually immersing myself into them emotionally.  It is very draining but oh man the writing just jumps off the page when that happens.

 

I too am visually oriented but I know ahead of time what I want my characters to look like in a general kind of way then search out visual aids that matches them.  I then use the pictures to give a better description of my characters along the way.  It's not only the physical attributes about a character but also a variety of things like their personalities, interests, activities, a whole range of things.  You have to bring all of this together including describing your character with all aspects of who they are.  It isn't simply about their physical attributes that make who they are, but a variety of things.  A physical description only provides one part of their story.  It's nice to know what they look like, but it isn't the whole picture.  As the story progresses we get a better image of our characters overall not only in how they look physically, but who they are as a person.

 

So for me it helps to give detailed descriptions about my characters along the way, but I also add a variety of descriptions along the way that depict my characters as a whole.  Like Rilbur says the description has to be a part of the story and not simply inserted.  At times I am guilty of it, but overall I find myself inserting the descriptions along the way for the most part.

[ken barber]

So I want to make sure I understand what you guys are saying. A physical description is helpful but more important would be staying true to personality traits and characteristics.Using physical discription would be inlcuded in the context of the story. "Joey's loved running his hands through Dan's thick sandy blond hair" that kind of thing?

[Hunter]

 

So I want to make sure I understand what you guys are saying. A physical description is helpful but more important would be staying true to personality traits and characteristics.Using physical discription would be inlcuded in the context of the story. "Joey's loved running his hands through Dan's thick sandy blond hair" that kind of thing?

Yes, in my opinion that is a good way to start including a description of the characters as the story sort of goes along, but there is also a need to recognize that when a character is sort of introduced that we also need some sort of description closer towards the beginning. Perhaps a more generalized description with more details coming out in stages as we progress. If you wait too long readers tend to get their own image of a character and when you start putting in some of the details it derails their imagery.

I tend to give an overall picture of my characters to start out with, and in a way, it is like what Rilbur described with what he hates, in that I tend to be a bit organic with the description at first. In other words I tend to give a brief generalized overall description at first, but then add more things and details along the way like you describe.

It is something I can work on and get better at in my opinion. I prefer to bring things out in stages, but also know it is kind of important to give a general impression of my characer at first and then slowly bring out other features about them along the way.  

[Wolfhighlander]

I do a little mix of different things.  Many times before I start I write out a description of my main characters and the closest supporting characters.  I don't spell out everything about them at once, for the most part I let it out a bit at a time, and sometimes I don't even describe something about a character at all. 

 

For example in Disconnected and Changing Connections for the main characters I have their height, weight, hair color, eye color, age, etc.  But for the most part I don't say this one is 5'7" and weight 130 lbs, even though I know it, I use that info to make the picture of the character in my mind.  I use this info to relate for instance how tall one of the main characters is to another.  It just helps me visualize a scene when I write it. 

 

As Hunter said, many times I like to describe character a bit at a time.  One time I may say something about his/her hair, maybe a few pages later, I mention the eye color or give an estimate of height compared to something else.  But that's how I do it. 

[ken barber]

This is all really great stuff thanks guys. 

[D'Artagnon]

I have two points to add, maybe somthing others covered, maybe not.

 

First is that sometimes you use how the character is described to fill in the story more.  Perhaps it's how your main character notices something different or new about another character.  That can lead to plot development, dialogue or just some introspection that moves the story in a different direction for a short jog.  Dunno about everyone else's work, but my stories don't always go straight line the way I initially envisioned them.  Sometimes a character or plot point jumps out, appears for a while and maybe gets ignored by the characters, only to be rediscovered later in the tale.  Real life acts this way enough that I feel it is almost essential to give your charcters room to change how they perceive and deal with each other.  Your character descriptions can enhance and even alter this as the main plot moves along.

 

Second, not everything is completely important to any part of a story.  Moments when characters stare deep into each other's eyes (either in dark fueled emotions or bright happy ones) usually tend to focus more on the eyes themselves, not on what shoes they're both wearing.  Using the description of the moment can often be more important than establishing a baseline or just running out statistical data.  Emotion, mood, general tendancies or variances from the norm can be almost as important as dropping numbers like height, weight and other anatomical enumeration.  Sieze on describing the most important things in the moment the charactes find themselves in.  I think you'll find that your narrative will flow more organically when you do that.

 

A third part, which I only thought of as I was writing the above sections, is to let the characters tell their story.  They'll describe what they see, feel, need, want, do, touch, plan, think of and dream about for you if you listen to them.  Then your job becomes simply letting those characters find a voice in you and letting that voice out.

 

Hope this helps.  From what I've read above, you are getting a lot of tremendous advice.  Let your voice out and show us what you (and your characters) have to say!

[ken barber]

D'artagnon,

 

Thanks for the input. This has been great. I have picked up a lot which will only make my writing stronger. Are your stories posted any where? Would love to see them

[Guest D'artagnon]

http://iomfats.org/storyshelf/hosted/dartagnon/  is where my Canterbury Knights stories are presently.  There may be an echo here in the future.  Also, and this may or may not affect the discussion above slightly, I usually wind up drawing my characters.  I guess in that sense. I have a usually solid idea of what they look like already.  It does influence my descriptions, but doesn't limit them.  I like to think that a character is a person that "could" exist in reality, and as such, is always evolving.

 

Okay, gonna hop off the soap box for now, lol.

[Wolfhighlander]

Got a question to the other Authors.  When you write, what is the average number of words per chapter that you write?  I know that some chapters would be longer or shorter depending on the story being told, and where a good cut point is, but I figure there is a  sort of average number of words that  a lot of authors have. 

 

I was just wondering, and trying to see if my chapters a bit long sometimes and maybe I need to cut some chapters in half at times and make them into two chapters instead of one.  I'm not sure what a reader might find too many pages or not enough pages. 

 

For instance, when I have been working with one of the editors in a shared document, with font size, etc, some of my chapters are 55-65 pages long and I've been wondering if that is too much for a chapter ajnd maybe it could have been turned into two chapters instead of one.

 

Just curious to see what you guys might say about it.

[ken barber]

Eric,

I have a tendency to write what is considered shorter chapters. For me its all about the pace of the story and finding that natural pause point. Of course cliff hangers or dramatic events are obvious natural pauses but sometimes to me it just feels right to end the chapter at a certain point. I don't really notice the word count until I am done. With that being said I tend to end between 5000-8000 words with the majority being around 7000. 

 

I think my grandfather taught that to me, he used to say give them a slice of the pie not the whole pie and they will come back for more. (of course he was talking about sermons as he was pastor at the church but it applies) The stories I tend to get hooked to and want to follow are typically shorter chaptered stories. Its just easier to make time to read. (Although yours is an exception but I really do have to schedule myself to read your chapters.)  

 

The one word of caution is don't create chapter breaks just to create them if it feels right to break into two chapters then its cool to do it.

[JoeWriterMan]

As a reader, I have no rule of thumb for chapter length.  If the content gets my attention then I'll simply sit and read to the end.  I cannot and will not try to read chapters with huge paragraphs without white space between 'pieces' of an idea.  My brain simply does not 'process' 100 to 200+ words within a paragraph.

 

As a writer, as Ken said - when the time seems right then break otherwise keep going.  My chapters seem to run anywhere between 15k and 33,000, just depends on what's going on.  My paragraphs are 'short'.  Many paragraphs are dialogue.  My rule of thumb on dialogue is that only one character's statement is in the paragraph.  New paragraphs are given for replies or visual reactions by another character(s) - otherwise it's all mishmash to my brain.

 

My comments are not directed toward any author.  I am simply stating my practices, and needs as a reader.

 

Joe

[Hunter]

Hello wolfhighlander,

 

I think you will find a variety of answers to this question and I don't think there is any one true answer.  It simply depends on the story content, author, and even each different chapter.  With my shorter stories that are between 10-15 chapters I tend to write shorter chapters in the word count range of between 10,000 to 15,000 words which tend to be about 20-30 pages.  I tend to break my chapters up into themes and tell the story according to the theme of the chapter and let it go where it leads.  Some of my longer stories are due to more information and research and my chapters tend to be longer in those cases usually between 25 to 35 pages, but I try not to let it get to more than 40 pages which ends up I suppose being around 12,000 to 20,000 words.

 

Paragraphs are paragraphs and comply to certain rules and so long as you sort of follow them it ends up being just fine.  It's hard to do paragraphs when your characters are having an actual conversation so I don't pay attention to much to paragraphs other than to make sure there is a logical flow to them and it makes sense when I go back and read it during the editing process.  Believe me when I edit is when I tend to clean up a lot of mistakes and try to smooth out the flow of the story.

 

Now in regards to ending a chapter, if you have a theme then it ends at a time when the theme is addressed.  Many of my readers tend to say I end my chapters in cliffhangers but if you really look at my chapters they aren't really cliffhangers per se, but a natural break where there will be a transition into the next chapter.  That isn't to say at times I will purposefully create a cliffhanger and I do, but as a whole not too often.  It only seems this way because my stories tend to break in a transitional sense between one chapter and the next and from one theme to the next.  Sometimes a theme may take up two or three chapters, but rarely, and in this case you simply find a good transitional place.  There will always be areas within a chapter that sort of has a conclusion to it, or it is easy enough to create one.  Personally, I've never had an issue with trying to have a transitional stage between one chapter or another.  Maybe it is because I tend to be more theme driven within each chapter.  The bottom line is that every author is going to have something that works for them.  I think if you let it go and simply write you will find that there are good transitional areas for you between one chapter and another.  It's when we start worrying about these types of things where we tend to mess ourselves up and start second guessing ourselves.  My suggestion is to maybe have something in mind on how you want a chapter to progress and then start writing it out.

 

I guess in a way it is like the way I create a general outline of my overall story.  I know where I want to start and where I want it to end.  In addition I have certain points in-between I know that I want to cover as well.  With a chapter it can be the same way.  I tend to have a theme and know how the chapter is going to start and end and what I want covered in-between.  Then I sit down and write it from point A to point C making sure to cover all the little B points.  It sort of takes care of it by itself because as you continue to write you will get a sense of how many words it will take to get from that said point A to point C while covering all the little B points in-between.  At that point you will find yourself making those fine tuning points in order to get what you want in regards to length.

 

Again, for me, my longer stories also tend to have longer chapters while my shorter stories tend to have shorter chapters.  It all depends on the amount of information going into a story which will then capitalize on the amount of research I'm conducting.  More research means more information incorporated into my story and chapters.

 

So in the end it comes back to whatever seems to work best for you in order to tell your story.

[D'Artagnon]

Typically, I'm more concerned with flow and meter within a story than chapter or paragraph length.  Although I have to admit that when the paragraphs start looking long, I start looking for ways to chop them up a bit.  Also, I have a tendency to write long, convoluted, extraneously elaborate sentences, typically over 14 words per.  And I often hang syntax out the window in favor of meter and mood.   I guess i get into the flow of descriptions and action, and thus stick to what feels right.

 

One of the things I find myself doing a lot is reading outloud, especially for dialogue.  I find that if it sounds right, reasonable and recognizable when spoken, it's often good as written.

[Rilbur]

Got a question to the other Authors.  When you write, what is the average number of words per chapter that you write?  I know that some chapters would be longer or shorter depending on the story being told, and where a good cut point is, but I figure there is a  sort of average number of words that  a lot of authors have. 

 

I 'aim' for a target length of 5K-10K words.  I'll break that if needed, but I have a hard-and-fast limit of absolutely no more than 15K words.

 

I have that hard limit for what might be termed 'mechanical' reasons.  Anything longer than 15K starts to become difficult to handle in a single sitting, or to digest as a single lump.  While this doesn't make 'flow' reading, going from start to finish of a story, more difficult, it can interfere with someone trying to break a story up mentally into digestible units.  E. G. someone who wants to just give themselves a few minute's break by reading 'just one chapter'.  It also invites technical difficulties; if a browser (PC, phone, whatever) fails or the user has an accidental command issue, it can be hard to find your spot again.  I've been halfway through 50K chapters and acicdentally lost my place, and trying to find it again in a chapter that long is almost impossible.

[ken barber]

Really good Question and some Great answers as well. I agree with Rilbur a really long chapter can be daunting if your trying to read really quickly on a lunch break or something. and if you cant finish in time trying to find your place is very annoying.

[Hunter]

I agree if you are looking for a story to read during a short lunch break or are reading it on a phone then yes it is easy to lose your spot or not have the time to get through it during the short break.  However, as an author I would have to think that there are many masterpieces out there that would never have been written if the concern was that someone would lose their spot on a phone or PC while reading.  There's a wide range of story lengths and story chapters out there and most never even had in mind being read on a phone versus PC versus a book.  It just came down to what suited the author, story content, and how it all came together.  Anyway, the length in my opinion really isn't what will hold a reader's attention or get them through a chapter.  It is content and if the content doesn't hold them then you have to either rethink the way it is written or make it shorter.  Some of my stories and chapters are rather long and I still get some readers who complain they aren't long enough, lol.  I suppose there are plenty of authors out there writing to cater to people who read on their phones or whatnot, but I tend to write my stories for content rather than worry about it being too long to fit on a phone.  Like I said everyone will have a different answer and way of putting together chapters that work well for them so the issue comes in place with what will work for you.  If your target audience reads your stories for the most part on a phone then you have to consider making the chapters smaller.  On a PC I don't see the length and losing their place in this regard much of an issue.  It's like losing your position in a book.  Everyone loses their spot from time to time, but we find it and go on reading, lol.  Short chapters are nice though for those quick breaks at work or whatnot.  There's a place for all differing lengths and the trick is to figure out where story fits.  Everyone finds their own comfort zone which will in turn reflect the readership they have.  As pointed out in my previous posting I tend to vary mine.

[ken barber]

I think your right there as well Hunter. I certainly don't target readers that use their phones but I for one and always on the go and do use my phone a lot for reading and do to this I will fall behind on a story of the chapters are just too long. with that being said its just like not being able to watch your favorite TV show you DVR and when you do have time you settle in and read it. Long stories just have to wait for me to curl up in the couch at home with a glass of wine (Red, Cabernet, Merlot in pinch, prefer Sonoma County CA 2007, for anyone making a Christmas list) and relax and enjoy the story. So either way if you write long or short chapters I will still read it if it grabs my attention. 

[Hunter]

I'm not sure how much help we are being to poor wolfhighlander, lol.  Like I pointed out at the onset there isn't going to be one right or wrong answer for him.  I think the best we can offer him is to let him know that this answer will be all over the board and so it will simply be one of those "it kind of depends" scenario.  Rilbur tends to have shorter chapters while people like me tend to have longer chapters.  I do try not to make my chapters too long so I have parameters as well, but try not to be limited to them.  Having written six stories now I've discovered there has to be a sort of flexibility with each and every story.

 

This really is a fantastic question because we've all been in the same situation as wolfhighlander trying to figure out where the balance is and there really isn't one correct answer.  So in the end we simply write with parameters in mind, but sometimes we can't be confined by them.

[Rilbur]

 It's like losing your position in a book.

Actually, no, it's not.  It's MUCH harder to find your place in a long chapter in a mobile browser than it is in a book.  Much, much harder.  I've done both.