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Why Do the Boy Scouts Still Ban Gay Troop Leaders?


Anjobranco

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Politics? Or no Politics.

 

But check this, i never was a scout, but not so shore if i would like to be.

Too much homophobia.

I personally believe that 90% of homophobia is derived from a lack of confidence in his own sexuality

 

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/robert-gates-the-boy-scouts-and-anti-gay-discrimination/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

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I was a Cub Scout, a very long time ago.  But, the politics of the sponsoring church, caused a split in the members and the creation of a new church. 

The new church did not want a Scout group, and the original did not want non-members participating.  So...

 

bob

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It seems to me that the Boy Scouts are in a tough position sort of. The founding of the Scouts, as I understand it, was religious based and that seems reflected in the scout oath and scout law. The influence of the church or churches are the bulk of the problems with regards to homosexuality. I recently seen a news article about a church who lost their charter with the BSA because the church refused to dismiss an openly gay scout master as per the rules of the National BSA. There are other churches who kick out a scout master for being gay or perceived to be gay in a heart beat.

 

Society is changing and religions and churches are rather anti-change or very slow to change. Thus the National BSA was put into a rather difficult position between keep their bases in religion yet being well regarded by businesses who fund them which are progressive in how people should be treated. So they compromised in allowing young gay scouts but saying no to gay scout masters. They are trying to play both sides to the middle and frankly I think that is a disastrous choice as you are now seeing splits among scout troops, and their supporters or sponsors. There are already groups that have split off from the BSA and are wholly Christian based in their approach and views. More radically and fundamental, if you ask me. 

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I have often wondered if this is tied the false belief that homosexual individuals tend to be pedophiles or molest children.

 

Here is actually an article that talks about this point.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/faculty_sites/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

 

I've not had the time to read the entire article yet but it seems like a fairly good article to read so I want to share it here.

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It seems to me that the Boy Scouts are in a touch position sort of. The founding of the Scouts, as I understand it, was religious based and that seems reflected in the scout oath and scout law. The influence of the church or churches are the bulk of the problems with regards to homosexuality. I recently seen a news article about a church who lost their charter with the BSA because the church refused to dismiss an openly gay scout master as per the rules of the National BSA. There are other churches who kick out a scout master for being gay or perceived to be gay in a heart beat.

 

Society is changing and religions and churches are rather anti-change or very slow to change. Thus the National BSA was put into a rather difficult position between keep their bases in religion yet being well regarded by businesses who fund them which are progressive in how people should be treated. So they compromised in allowing young gay scouts but saying no to gay scout masters. They are trying to play both sides to the middle and frankly I think that is a disastrous choice as you are now seeing splits among scout troops, and their supporters or sponsors. There are already groups that have split off from the BSA and are wholly Christian based in their approach and views. More radically and fundamental, if you ask me. 

 

I actually just read that article as well GayActivist. I definitely see where you are coming from here.

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That is true, not only for the BSA but for many religions and or religious leaders and even some people in general. There is a belief that gay people are molesters. This is in part due to the lack of understanding of human sexuality and in part due to the sexual repression within many religions. It has been awhile, but I happened across a video on youtube of an old PSA that was made back in the 50's I think it was. The PSA was a warning to parents and children to be weary of homosexuals preying on young boys and went on to talk about how they make more homosexuals through recruiting etc etc. Things like that did not help and further drove misinformation and fear into the general population.

 

A lot of that misinformation and forced religious dogma continues to this day. But science, real information and people coming out and taking a stand has begun to overcome the stigma that has been around far too long. Change, as said before, is slow to occur in some circles.

 

Then there are those who simply want to hate for the sake of hate and refuse any evidence that counters their view. Such as the various reports from the FBI about real child predators and how the majority of them are heterosexual and that most children are victimized by a family members or close family friend.

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Society is changing and religions and churches are rather anti-change or very slow to change.

I'm sorry, but no.  Just... no.

 

While some churches are extremely slow to change, other churches and religions are active catalysts for social change.  A good example comes to mind is that abolitionism was initially centered in / organized by the Quaker church.

 

Say rather that churches and religion can prove an extremely fertile breeding ground for conservative (in the sense of resisting change), and I'll have no objection at all.

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I think GayActivist comments might be taken a bit to literally. I did not get the impression that he was saying all religions or churches are anti-change or slow to change. If you look at the total of his posts and comments, he made mention of churches that are rather progressive towards gay scout masters.

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Thank you. Sorry if my intent was not clear enough. Though I stand by the statement that most, not all mind you, but most are anti-change, or very slow to change. If you observe, you will also see a power struggle of sorts between those that are slow to change and those that are more forward thinking. Ultimately the forward thinking will win out, but at what cost?

 

I have issues with religion and certainly with how some preacher and practice it. But I respect anyone who is of faith. In so long as they do not try and force their views, morals or ethics or beliefs onto me, anyone else or society as a whole. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Practice what you want, believe what you want. But do not force me or anyone else to do and believe as you do. Live your life not mine. Religion is a strange beast In that it can be an instrument of good and bad. Sadly, lately, it seems the bad is prevailing. It seriously concerns me that we are heading for a theocracy in this country. I still have some faith in mankind that this will be avoided. 

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My grandfather is actually a preacher. And I am a homosexual athiest. He doesn't know that.

 

I think that many religions as a basis offer resistance to change. However it depends on how strict the interpretation of the leading body of the religious institution whether or not the individual congregations can adapt to a changing world or not. In the instance of the catholic church they tend to follow a single governing body and so follow the precepts put forth by that body as a whole. However religions such as christian baptist or penticostal are more individualized and have a wide degree of adaptability ranging from rigid to flexible.

 

This is where I feel many people seem to fall into a trap of thinking religion is wrong because it is imobile or unthinking. We don't realize that christianity isn't christianity. It is a collection of beliefs some differing and some conflicting. However it holds the same originating idea for the most part. The same can be said of any colelctive; even the BSA as displayed by the article GayActivist brought up in post #4. ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/22/us/boy-scout-troop-loses-charter-over-gay-leader.html?smid=fb-share )

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Hmm, that is interesting Tech. Maybe GayActivist can speak to this. I wonder if maybe he was speaking to the core major religions, which are considered the face of their respective religions and thus tend to have more influence with the understanding that even within those core religions there are sub-sets of groups or religions that are far more progressive and forward thinking. From that perspective, I think I can see how one might of thought he was grouping all religions together as slow to change, when that really was not what he was trying to convey.

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That is it. I did not think it was necessary to be that clear in my intent if the context of all that I had said in several posts were taken into consideration. In hindsight, I probably should of been more clear. You are right, I was speak to the core religions as you put it. There are always exceptions to everything. As I stated before, there is good and bad in religion, that is more to due with how the people in authority use it. It is that, that I speak most to, I think. Live and believe as you wish, but do not force it onto others through legislative actions or laws which is what some of the more fanatical elements are trying to do.

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I read all of your posts and after some thinking i decide to make this post.

Some background, i am from Portugal, it is an old European country with very strong tradition and roman catholic believes.

I was baptize as almost all of the people here, and was raised under the assumptions of that religious believes.

Seriously i do not know how to define my self in terms of religion.

I know one thing, to me religion and church are two different things.

I believe in religion as a mean to improve ourselves, and to achieved improvement on our understanding of ourselves and what surrounds us.

I will now make a statement that will scandalize and possibly offend some of you.

I hate "The Church" as an institution to me it is evil pure and simple, it is the biggest abomination that humanity has ever created.

If there really was an almighty God, to me he should have already destroyed all kinds of churches. They are a source of corruption, lust for power, and domination of the freedom of thought. If we think of the human history the church has brought us the Crusades, the holy inquisition, religious persecution, witch hunts, and if you really think the great foundation of terrorism is the church.

The Dark age of mankind was because of church.

Maybe I am being too harsh on some churches. But I do not trust churches, because churches are basically created and run by men, and as we know from the mind and imagination of man came out some of the greatest abominations ever.

I admit that not every man is bad I am not a saint, but I like to think I am not pure evil also. I have my flaws, and possibly one of them is the irrational hatred for churches, but that is how I am. But I am also not afraid to admit I am wrong. 
Therefore making it a small challenge, challenge myself and all of you, show me a church that is not all what I said about them. Maybe that will make me believe in humanity a little more, because at the moment I do not have much faith in them.

 

 

 

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I just wanted to make a quick reply here to everyone. Thank you for the lively debate. I am sure it will continue for a bit longer. But thank you to everyone who has participated thus far. Various positions have been expressed and everyone has treated everyone else with respect. This is how it should work in civil discourse. Thank you again to everyone.

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Anjobranco,

 

I think you will find many that agree with you on your views of "the church". I for one grew up Mormon, a deeply traditional church with some pretty crazy belief structures. I too hate the church as does most of my family. The way I was treated by our beloved church after coming out was in a word horrifying. My family was harassed, bullied,pestered and brow beaten. None of us are involved in the church anymore. 

Today's churches (I know I am generalizing here not all but most) have become Christian war machines. There one track agenda is to rise as the largest and most powerful church. They will crush anyone that states a difference of opinion. 

 

Now I know this topic was about Boy Scouts so I want to get back to that. 

 

The Boy Scouts started as a church affiliated organization. Under that concept they could legal exclude anyone that did not hold the same belief structures.   When they sought and received US  federal recognition as a 501©3 non-profit organization open to everyone they changed their business model. The Concept of non-profits is they are suppose to supply a service or goods that is lacking in the federal and state government structure thereby easing the burden on the government and society as a whole. This Not-for-profit corporations are owned by the community, therefore should not be allowed to discriminate or exclude. The problem arises in the original concept of the The BSA helping young boys grow to be young men with strong Christian values. Back to church, which christian values? Roman Catholic? Eastern Orthodox? Mormon? Baptist? Pentecostal? methodist? Evangelican? Lutheran? I can go on for hours. each has a different set of core values and beliefs. Many of this "Churches" I believe are rip for the return of Christ so he can "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;" all over again.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As an old Scouter, let me explain things as I have experienced them.  (I've been in the Scouting program for 35 years and am trained (and held) every adult leader position at the troop level.)

 

Each Scout unit is chartered to an organization (a church, civic group, business, school (rare now), or even an individual)  This means that this Charter Organization ownes that troop.  They are agreeing to use the Scouting program as set out in the Handbook and other materials offered by the national organization.  However there are many things that the Charter Organization has the ultimate say on.  One of those things is who is qualified to be a leader.  As a leader you have to agree to live by the Scout Oath and Law.  A youth is held to a lesser standard that adults, a youth must do his best, that gives him some slack to make mistakes and learn from them.  The homosexual issue really doesn't belong in Scouting any more than does the heterosexual issue.  There is no place in the scouting program for sex.  (Inagine if there was a 'Baby Making' merit badge.  Jeez!)  BSA National has recently clarified their position on gay leaders.  The position is now clear that the accepability of a leader is the business of the Charter Organization.  Some Churches find homosexuals to violate the 'morally straight' condition of the Scout oath.  They have the right to exclude a leader for that reason.  Roland and I could be in danger on the 'physically fit' clause.  As a matter of fact I can not attend a National Jamboree because my body fat index is greater than 30.

 

I served for three years as a Charter Organization Representative for mu church and were fine with the concept as long as the leader in question wasn't 'waving a rainbow flag' so to speak, just as a leader who was openly bed hopping would be toast.  Morality is the guiding influence.  If you are gay and want to be a Scout leader, find a Charter Organization that will allow it.  Teh LDS Church and Catholic Church are not going to welcome you as openly gay.  The Presbyterian Church (depending on the congregation) and the Episcopal Church are more accepting.  (I'm sure there are more examples for both sides)  I think it is amazing that a 100 year old organization is still able to continue using the same guidelines.  Scouting is about teaching boys to be good and productive citizens and leaders.  All in all I thing having been a Scout as a boy has greatly influenced the kind of man I am today.

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  • 2 months later...

I have been involved as a Scout Leader for 15 years.  I have held various positions in Scouting, from the Cub level to Boy Scouting, to the District and Council level.  I've seen several people say it is a religion based in the thread above and I don't really agee with that.  Str8mayb has it the most correct as you would expect for someone having been involved for 35 years. 

 

The biggest issue with gay adult leaders is that most Packs, Troops, Crews, Teams are chartered by a church, and they are allowed to say what rules to follow.  That is the basis for the religion based organization view that many people have.  I will give you that in the beginning of the program it was more closely religious based, but it was also more military based at the beginning.  Just look at the first uniforms for BSA, they look like WW1 US Army uniforms.  That was changed quickly and they moved away from a military look, but things are slowly changing. 

 

First the ban on gay youth was removed, now it has been left up to the Chartered Organization, to make the decision to accept gay leaders, it is not quite a ban, but it is still in effect.  Hopefully things will begin to change as we go forward and people will begin to realize that people are just people, who they care for does not matter in how they can lead and guide others.  I believe that eventually this issue will move to the wayside as they issue with gay youth.  Yes, some religious organizations did drop out, when the 'ban' was removed, but most realized that the program is a powerful one in helping young people grow into good productive citizens in their community.

 

I have seen some amazing changes in the boys who take part in the program and that is why I will continue to support the program.  How many of you have seen an 11 year old boy stand up in front of the City Council and with no problems or obvious nervousness, put forward a proposal, that was accepted.  This is just one thing I have seen, among so many.  I know former scouts who are doing extremely well since they left scouting.  They are impressive young men.

 

In many countries Scouting is done a little differently, in some, being gay means practically nothing, because as Strmayb said, it has no place in Scouting, they just want their scouts to learn all the leadership, citizenship, and personal growth that a young person learns as they advance through the program.  That is the point of the program, become a better person.  As the quote says under my name.  "Try and leave this world a little better than you found it."  And that is what the majority of the young people who take part in the program accomplish.  Whether the effect that they have is big or small, they leave this world a little better than they find it.

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The Boy Scouts, both individually and collectively is an organization made up of many individuals and was originally intended to provide a role model of healthful living and productive participation on the part of its members in the communities in which they live. The attitudes and objectives were and are still, a reflection of the majority of those who participate in the program. Their attitude towards gay people, like that of the general population is changing, albeit, very slowly. I know that this change is not proceeding fast enough, particularly for those who are gay, or have those close to them who are gay, BUT, lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. Like most things, there is good with the bad and, for many boys, the Scouting program is a lifeline in a time when there are few lifelines still available.

 

 

Certainly, change must come and all of us, both gay and otherwise must work together to bring about that change WITHOUT destroying the youngsters who depend upon Scouting as their lifeline to growing up. Family structures in our society are crumbling and, unless we adults do not step in and shore our civilization up, we are going to be faced with its destruction in our own lifetimes. The men who give up their own time to lead these boys are to be admired and, if they do not lead them as we would like, then we have only ourselves to blame if we have not stepped in to assist them.

 

Charles Bird

SeaBird

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  • 1 month later...

I am a 60-yr old  man, gay, and out since I was 17.  I was in Cub Scouts through all the ranks, and Boy Scouts for 2 years, and definitely appreciate what Str8mayb, Wolfhighlander, and Seabird have said, both about the organization of the Scouts, and the intentions of Scout leaders to help young men grow into thoughtful, useful, self-sufficient, and helpful adult citizens.  I think it is important for us to remember that things are HUGELY better for gay people now than they were 40 years ago, and they continue to change for the better.  As discrimination recedes and more gay people become more open because they have less to fear, the society in general come to know that they know gay people (their family members, neighbors, co-workers, fellow members of clubs and organizations, etc), and that gay people are no different from them.  In other words, the declaration of the American Psychiatric Association that homosexuality is a NORMAL variation of human sexual orientation becomes more accepted, and people come to see that homosexuality, in and of itself, is no more connected to evil than heterosexuality is.  I am a cradle Catholic, like Anjobranco, but I am active in the Church, one of the few remaining men ordained into the minor order of Lector.  I am a 4th Degree Knight of Columbus, and within my parrish hold the office of Sacristan.  While it is certainly true that many churches, and especially the Catholic Church, have committed horrendous atrocities, that does not negate the IMMENSE good done by the Church, of feeding millions, and seeing to medical care for millions, and the educations of millions of people in practical arts and letters and math and music and science.  And I think if Anjobranco will find that the Church, rather than the cause of the Dark Ages, was in fact the preserver of learning and literature through them, and an important resource for our long social recovery from them.  The key for us, in all this, is for good gay people to come out.  This still requires a degree of bravery, but the example of our lives gives the lie to prejudice, whatever its source, right in front of the bigot's eyes.  Much of our problem lies in unthinking acceptance by  a LOT of people, of some pretty ridiculous religious assertions, like that the Bronze Age fables of the Old Testament, similar in many ways to the fables of pagan Middle Eastern religions, in spite of translation from an ancient language spoken by no living human into languages not spoken at the times of the lives of any of their authors, are literal, word-for-word truth.  Or the assertion that the Old Testament Law ever has or ever should apply to Gentiles, most especially to Christian Gentiles, who are, for all practical purposes, ALL the Christians.  Or the assertion that ANY of the Biblical authors, in ANY of the Biblical passages PURPORTED to be about homosexuality or homosexual behavior, were writing about a human orientation as we currently understand it.  These things will change over time, if we persist in showing by our example that these beliefs and their resultant behavior cause dissention, division, injury and death, and offer NOTHING for the glory of God or the betterment of God's people. 

Thanks, folks, for some very thoughtful and heartfelt commentary.

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  • 1 year later...

Well, I've just found this thread. I have been through cubs and scouts where I am living now I have become involved as a leader in a local troop. One big difference with british troops is they are mixed, in fact we have camps with boys and girls sleeping together in the same tent :o (something which would probably give BSA apoplexy! hehehe). We have a large group with a mix of folks, some happy traditional families, some single parents. I don't know of any gay parents but it's possible there are one or two, and there may even be one or two gay leaders though it isn't an issue. I've never bothered to ask. We just do the best for our group and the kids. The UK scouts seem to be a lot more accepting and I often see stuff in the scouting mags about them taking part in the various big city pride parades.

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Re-reading through this reminds me.  This policy has changed recently as well.

 

"On Monday, July 27, the National Executive Board ratified a resolution that removes the national restriction on openly gay adult leaders and employees. Of those present and voting, 79 percent voted in favor of the resolution. The resolution was recommended for ratification by the Executive Committee earlier this month. The resolution is effective immediately.

..."

Dated as July 27, 2015.

 

Quoted from: http://scoutingnewsroom.org/blog/boy-scouts-of-america-amends-adult-leadership-policy/

Edited by Benji
Added date of quoted report.
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If my understand is correct, even though the National Organization has voted the change. Local chapters run by churches or religious groups can still ban gay troops and or leaders at their discretion. I am not clear on if those groups would lose national support or funding if they ban. So while progress is good, it is a long way from being over, I think.

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The resolution allowed the affiliated religious institutions to continue to bar gay members and leaders, in conformance to their own religious leanings.

Failure to have included such language in the resolution would have forced the LDS church to sever ties with the BSA. The National Org couldn't have that, as the Mormons make up the single largest segment of Scouting. I forget the figure, but if the Mormons dropped their BSA affiliation, it would have destroyed Scouting in the USA.

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