Kandric Saga

[Kyle Aarons]

See! I told you it was A monster! 

I broke it, oh yeaaaaa I broke it! Yessssss!

😈

[Zergrinch]

Split it into three or so subchapters. Call them 33-A, 33-B, and 33-C.

Or maybe reorganize. One subchapter is all Kandric. Another is all Conner. And the last one is all Saslara/Bloody Rock.

[Al Norris]

I gotta fess up... It wasn't the chapter. I broke the story. sigh...... double punched the keyboard in a copy&paste.

But it is fixed and is back.

[Togego]

A fascinating chapter.

With his letter, King Wyhrem stole Kandric's role as least likable hero character.
Yes, Kandric failed to initiate "diplomatic" contact, and I really don't understand why neither the Alphar nor the Garm admiced him to do so since it was them who established the war camp for him.
But the other counts are alltogether laughable.
Unless I missed something, most of Kandric's dragon kills were done in the Slome region, thus outside of King Wyhrem's lands. The only dragons killed within were whites, so claiming Kandric placed his lands in potential conflict within multiple dragon homelands is simply wrong.
And as the king, shouldn't he be more worried about what all those white dragons were doing within his lands, rather than that they were killed?
Asking for "profound justification" for the death of a demon actually places him on the side of the Mythlings, thus puts him on the villain side, so maybe Kandric was lucky and actually keeps his position.
Alsohe didn't requite the same "profound justification" from Glaster who also killed a major demon within Rolling Dale.
With how he handled change in Klandon he already wasn't one of my favorites, but with this letter he clearly didn't act as a good king.

For me, it becomes more and more difficult to find a character I can genuinely like. Nearly all characters have so many dark sides that the story barely has any heroes left.
It's a difficult decision, but at the moment I think Aster is my favorite hero.

[Demented]

It's interesting seeing how people view these characters. There seems to be quite the diverse range of opinions on them, which I can appreciate. Maybe I should list out some characters and give my thoughts on them. 

The Brothers: 
 

• Kandric: Take a boy with Stockholm syndrome and anger issues and give him the most comprehensive education in pretty much everything, and you have our titular character. His time with Glaster has given him elite training, but at the cost of him becoming a pint sized version of his teacher. It's harder for the adults around him to tell as of now, but his moral compass has been permanently damaged from his time with the one armed man. Even at the start of the story, when he saw a mysterious armored man pulling away captured slaves with him, his thoughts were less on saving the two than giving them over to Glaster. 
   
  Kandric is the most corrupt of the three main brothers without question. From his "business" in the Slome Jail to his enjoyment of owning and abusing slaves, it would be a powerful stretch to consider him to be a good person. I believe he still has good within him and that he can have good intentions, but he has a lot more in common with Vondum than I think anyone would initially think starting this tale. In fact, in some ways, Vondum may even have a better chance at rehabilitation, cause at least he recognizes how disturbed his mind and personality is. 
   
• Connor: Much like Kandric, Connor emulates his teacher in how he behaves, though Anarton doesn't have quite the staggering influence over his personality that Glaster had with Kandric. Connor is plagued with self hatred and suicidal ideation, but he tries to do what is right by his wraith sect warrior brothers and Aster. His time with the Thunder Rapids has done wonders to heal some of the wounds in his heart from being disowned by his parents and learning such dark things as a Wraith. It is clear that the things he's had to deal with involving Dark mages has caused trauma for him that will likely have ramifications for years to come, however I think he's in good hands with the Thunder Rapids crew and Pontarious. 
   
• Aster: Compared to Kandric, Aster is a Boy Scout. To highlight the sheer gulf between these two on a morality chart, the worst thing Aster's done in this story to date was put a Watch Marker on someone who turned out to be a Dark Mage. Kandric meanwhile has multiple associates who've directly worked with and financed Gambra and her operations. Kandric personally witnessed Monarch handing over women to be raped at the start of the story, and now has that same illorc in his entourage as a commander in his army. Aster abhors the practice of slavery and has shown no mercy to slavers when he's caught them in the act. 
   
  Aster, like his other two main siblings, also finds a lot of his influence with his teacher. Master Lannet appears to be a much better man than Glaster or Anarton however, as Aster does not have the Stockholm syndrome nor the severe emotional trauma of his siblings. Aster had a hard life without question, but he had people to lean on that were trustworthy and didn't take advantage of him like the other two did. 
  
  I would go so far as to say if Connor or Aster knew some of the deeds that Kandric's been up to, they'd both want a round in a sparring pit over it. 

 The Mentors/ Guardians: 

• Glaster (aka the Epstein of Eagleonia): If Glaster had not trained Kandric as well as he did, and managed to achieve a level of Stockholm Syndrome with the boy, I'm fairly confident he would have been executed by the Garm and Alphar for what he did with one of their princes. The corruption to Kandric's personality and moral compass can be traced back almost entirely with Glaster, who is honestly only a "good" guy by virtue of being a blood brother of King Wyrem and a member of the watch. He is unabashedly lawful evil, using his position of power to Epstein young lads from all over. If Glaster were a real life person, he'd likely be the most scandalous and hated predators to ever be reported on in the news. 
  
  As evil as he is however, you cannot deny that he gave Kandric one hell of an education. Unlike Anarton however, we have yet to see him replicate this training in another boy, hinting that Kandric was just as much a part of his education process as Glaster and his resources were. It is because of that that I would reserve judgement on him being the most effective of the mentors. Until he can replicate even a bit of what he did with Kandric in someone else, I think that might have been a fluke. At the same time, in a sane universe the man would not be allowed near any educational profession of the sort. What's worse, Kandric is showing every sign of becoming a magnified reflection of everything Glaster is, be it good or ill. 
   
• Anarton: Not as much is known about Anarton as Glaster, but there are certainly similarities. While Glaster focuses on training a small number of boys at a time, Anarton has something of an X-Men's school going for Wraith Sect Warriors. Though he was close to being a Dark Mage in the past, he has largely seemed to become the enemy of all Dark Mages and has become something of a thorn in the side of their efforts. The good he has done in his efforts to eliminate Dark Mages definitely places him in a better light than the Epstein of Eagleonia. Likewise, his student Connor has made devastating headway shattering Gambra's operations, which is something to be applauded. 
   
• Lannet: If Pontarious were not around, Lannet would easily have the title of the best mentor of the bunch in terms of keeping their charge safe. He raised up Aster to be a respectable member of the watch and a skilled metal worker and healthman. He also managed to do so without permanently scarring the boy's psyche. Aster is a much more kind hearted and stable person than his siblings, and a large part of that could be traced back to the care that Lannet took to raise him while letting him be himself. 
  
  Pontarious: A rare breed in this story, Pontarious stands as one of the few decent adults in this sordid tale. His time with Connor has done much to help the boy heal, though he'll have a long time to go. It really is a shame that Pontarious probably does not have the lifetime to really raise Connor like one of his own. I am fully confident however that he would absolutely despise Glaster, and he'd have a less than favorable opinion of Anarton. It was probably a good thing Anarton hightailed it into the nearest cave when he saw Pontarious's ship laying down the law in Rolling Dale. 
   
• Kaylaria (worst mother of the year award goes to...): Lets not mince words, Kaylaria is barely better than her father, and even that is debatable. She's a horrid mother, one that was practically looking for a reason to disown her children in the few times we've seen her. Her lack of parental ability is such that Kandric would have likely left her and never came back had he not wanted to feed his siblings. It's so bad that even other characters in the story recognize it and have said she would not be raising any more children. 
  The three of her children who have become the most powerful and influential in the story were the three she had the least influence on. If she had it her way, they'd all be still squatting in a run down hut begging for scraps rather than using any form of critical thinking to fix her situation. That's not even me talking, that is the reprimands of several characters in the story. 

Supporting Cast: 

• King Wyhrem: The well meaning if ineffectual King of Eagleonia has certainly not been having a good time during the course of the story. I have made the argument that he is facing political espionage that I doubt any nation in this story could have weathered much better, yet that cannot fully take off the marks against his rulership. As hampered as he was in monitoring his own kingdom by the Green Dragons and Gambra, the fact remains that he failed not only his nation but his family. Both his boys were tortured had their minds mangled to the point where they aren't even sure who is who. I have a lot more sympathy for his position than most, however he is going to need to do a lot to redeem himself in the eyes of readers of being a King worth respecting. I think his meeting with Kandric and the actions he will perform in the chapters going forward will help with that. I also look forward to see how his relationship with Prince Bayne will progress, perhaps giving him a chance to redo being a parent that he lost with the intervention of the Green Dragons and Gambra. 
   
• Jamon: One of my favorite characters in this tale, he has come a long way from the beginning of the story. His time with Kandric and Vondum has been something of a trial by fire for him, and it has made him into a stronger person at the other side of it. I also believe Jamon really cares for Kandric and feels deeply indebted to him, and I have no doubt they will be friends for years to come. I hope to see more development for him in the future. 
   
• Seldnat: I love this crazy bastard. I can see Seldnat becoming one of those eccentric heroes bards sing songs about in the future. His time with Kandric has been short, but it has turned him into probably one of the most powerful half orcs in the mortal realms. I look forward to seeing him Gunch a dragon on his own. 
   
• Zeltoss: One of the first of Kandric's merry band of hooligans', he's come a long way from the soft and shy kid that gave Kandric a gift in the Slome Jail. I'd also say he's showing some of the most signs of corruption of the group if his trick with the mini illusion is any indication. 
   
• Conth: His story has dragged a bit in my eyes. Vondum needs to get it over with with Conth already, cause their dynamic has grown rather stale at this point. Conth is also just not as likable as Jamon was, and I personally find him rather exhausting in certain parts. Hopefully once he gets with the Dragon he'll develop some more interesting personality traits. 
   
• Prince Klandon: (the Gambra substitute/Zoldon): There have been readings I've done of Kandric where I just straight up skip segments where Klandon was involved. He was that insufferable. I fully recognize that was intentional, but man it made for an unpleasant read. After he meets some Dark elves, his personality becomes much more palatable and I've grown to like him a lot more, however those initial chapters where he was in full bratty prince mode were the worst. 
   
• Prince Klandon: (aka the real one): In his early chapters, he wasn't much more than a plot device and a McGuffin that people were fighting over. His personality was almost nonexistent due to all the trauma he'd been through. Even now he's not really developed into anything that memorable, so it remains to be seen what is in store for this one. Most of the interesting things about him are more what was done too him rather than what he's done. 
   
• Vondom: The man is a broken, traumatized figure through and through, whose penchant to harm young lads can be traced to the horrific years he spent in Bandurlok's forge. Kandric has been something of a good influence on him (though with how corrupted Kandric is we're probably speaking in a relative sense here) and he's no longer allied with Gambra, but he is still a sadist and a fairly evil individual. I look forward to seeing his meeting with his brother Pontarious. As far as his relationship with Conth, it's largely become stagnant and uninteresting at this point. I'd rather them get that over with so they both can do more interesting character arcs. 

There are many, MANY other characters I could bring up, but these are the ones that come to mind at the moment. If I were to break down every character, I'd likely write a whole chapter just on that. I may do more later when the mood strikes me. 

 

[Zergrinch]

Interesting views. I'm not about to write my own treatise on character analysis, but allow me to respond to some of your points.

You painted Glaster as a lawful evil man, a point of view I initially disagreed with, but one that I'm starting to agree with. I don't, however, see him as more evil than Vondum.

Why? Because for all of his penchant with raping helpless boys, he has bettered their lots. Kandric's training is an indicator, of course, but we have seen his former playthings grow up, seemingly well-adjusted (Gablon), and still grateful for him.

Vondum, on the other hand, revels in cruelty. He hasn't taught his victims anything, and after their stint with him, are hardly better off. I would argue most of them are worse off, if his intentions to sell Jamon to a brothel after breaking him is an indication. He even spun that off as a test of character when he was getting Jamon his pet, but we readers are not fooled by Vondum's face saving attempt to put himself in a better light.

Vondum may preach tough love and self-reliance, but in the end he is a selfish bully who disregards the well-being of his charges.

Vondum and Monarch are definitely lawful evil, while I would place Glaster in the periphery of lawful evil and neutral evil.

Is past trauma a valid excuse for acting the way you act? That's eye for an eye thinking. Glaster also has his own trauma (losing an arm to the warlords of Moldor). Heck, Pontarius had it worse than Vondum. Someone who is heroic can rise above their trauma and do some good, even in a relentlessly crapsack world like the Kandric universe. 

Was Kandric corrupted by Glaster? I don't think so. Read the first few chapters, the ones before he gained too much power too quickly. He was pretty likable to me. Yes, he didn't lift a finger to help Jamon's family, but he probably wouldn't be able to do much. Monarch and Vondum will make mincemeat out of him.

After the dragon gifting, I agree his personality changed and he became a dick with a short fuse and a cruel streak. However, I see it more as him being unable to handle power, than Glaster rubbing off on him. He's been absorbing power from demons and evil dragons -- who's to say he hasn't been absorbing their evilness along with it?

I am undecided about Conner. I know he's got a lot of screen time, but he feels like a deus ex machina to me, in the same vein as Kandric. Need some exposition in dark magic and how the spells work? Conner knows all about it. Want to talk about primordial gods? Conner has a pact with one of them all along. Jealous of tattoos with hammerspace? Guess who has them.

Finally, there's Aster, the weakest among the big three even if he's the oldest by birth date. I agree with your assessment on him. He hasn't done anything remotely objectionable, which is why I keep harping on him sitting around in that castle doing nothing. It's been ages since he's had that dream about Xavier and his crew in Sands of Time -- I want to see the most virtuous of Kandric's brothers do something meaningful, damnit. Yes, he got to help gunch a dragon, but by now that's basically Tuesday for Kandric's family 😅

.

 

[Demented]

2 hours ago, Zergrinch said:

Interesting views. I'm not about to write my own treatise on character analysis, but allow me to respond to some of your points.

You painted Glaster as a lawful evil man, a point of view I initially disagreed with, but one that I'm starting to agree with. I don't, however, see him as more evil than Vondum.

Why? Because for all of his penchant with raping helpless boys, he has bettered their lots. Kandric's training is an indicator, of course, but we have seen his former playthings grow up, seemingly well-adjusted (Gablon), and still grateful for him.

Vondum, on the other hand, revels in cruelty. He hasn't taught his victims anything, and after their stint with him, are hardly better off. I would argue most of them are worse off, if his intentions to sell Jamon to a brothel after breaking him is an indication. He even spun that off as a test of character when he was getting Jamon his pet, but we readers are not fooled by Vondum's face saving attempt to put himself in a better light.

Vondum may preach tough love and self-reliance, but in the end he is a selfish bully who disregards the well-being of his charges.

Vondum and Monarch are definitely lawful evil, while I would place Glaster in the periphery of lawful evil and neutral evil.

Is past trauma a valid excuse for acting the way you act? That's eye for an eye thinking. Glaster also has his own trauma (losing an arm to the warlords of Moldor). Heck, Pontarius had it worse than Vondum. Someone who is heroic can rise above their trauma and do some good, even in a relentlessly crapsack world like the Kandric universe. 

This is Lawful Evil in the way I see it. 

Lawful means that you are a person who puts much stock into the letter of the law. If it is written as a rule, you will follow it. Not only that, you have strong opinions about other people breaking said laws. 

Evil in my eyes is the disregard of another person life, autonomy, and/or well being for your own personal ends, whatever those may be. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a cartoonish villain, but it does mean you have a callous disregard for other people and will do things to them that people will find heinous. 

Now lets combine those two terms together while looking at Glaster: 

Glaster unquestionably follows the letter of the law. He is quite versed in the rules of Eagleonia as well as other nations. He also refuses to go beyond his rank to do something he normally would love to do. One example off the top of my head was his handling of the royal boys in the early chapters. He outright refuses to do anything with them, even tough he deeply desires it, purely because it would betray the trust of those above his station and would be seen as a crime. That is actually why he felt he needed to come clean to the Garm and Alphar over his handling of Kandric. He found himself well outside of his station bedding a prince of a very powerful nation, and it was only the training he provided Kandric and the Stockholm syndrome that saved his ass. 

Glaster, at the very start of the story, gave Kandric an ultimatum. One that Kandric actually references in the latest chapter. He said that he could agree to the terms and get trained by Glaster, or he could refuse them and get bought from his mother as a slave and receive no training. We also see in Glaster's internal dialogue in that very same chapter that while he hated the idea of turning Kandric into a slave, he would have done it if he had refused. He completely disregarded Kandric's choice, well being, and future when he gave that ultimatum, hoping that the direness of the second option would compel Kandric to agree. This is called Quid Pro Quo in modern law and is very illegal, however in this setting there is no such law barring actions like this. 

So even Kandric, Glaster's crowning achievement in education, would have been trampled underfoot by Glasters desires had he not capitulated to his terms. Yes, he and others have received educations and positions of power and influence, much like I'm sure similar deals have been made in Hollywood with actors and actresses. That does not change the underlying truth that their wellbeing and their personal choice were a distant second to Glaster's own desires.

Vondum is someone I would describe as Neutral Evil, though that alignment has been getting shaken as the story progressed. 

Neutral describes someone who only looks out for themselves and marches to their own beat. If they work for someone, it is because that person aligns with what they want. 

Vondom learned how to be neutral evil through his time in those Forge. He learned to watch out only for himself and to stand on his own to feet, even if it meant leaving his brother behind and disregarding his fate. Those lessons have seeped into how he treats his slave boys. Those who don't have a backbone and won't stand up for themselves will find themselves earning his endless ire and cruelty. Those that do however show themselves to have the same backbone he did in the Black Dragon's Forge. 

You are absolutely right if Kandric had not have intervened, Jamon would have likely been broken and sold to a brothel. However, the strength that Jamon showed later, even at the cost of whipping his own brother, earned Vondums respect as well as brought him back to that time in his life. Vondum, unlike Glaster, has this moment of honesty and clarity with Jamon where he speaks with him and tells him to not let go of his humanity. He tells Jamon to remind himself of what he's doing to people, to even hurt himself if he needs to, so that he does not grow addicted to the power. 

It is that moment of clarity and the internal struggle he has with how he is that sets him apart from Glaster. Glaster justifies his actions with bribes and ultimatums, but Vondum understands that he is absolutely fucked up. 

While this distinction would not mean much in a court of law, I say it does say that Vondum has more of a chance to change his ways and become less evil than he was. In fact, that's exactly what we've been seeing over the course of the story. Vondum having flashes of humanity and an internal struggle with how he acts towards people that is fundamentally missing within Glaster. 

Does that justify any of Vondums heinous acts? No, nor would I ever claim they would. Instead, what I'm saying is he has a chance of being rehabilitated, and that I'd say would put him in a slightly better light than our One Armed Epstein. 

3 hours ago, Zergrinch said:

Was Kandric corrupted by Glaster? I don't think so. Read the first few chapters, the ones before he gained too much power too quickly. He was pretty likable to me. Yes, he didn't lift a finger to help Jamon's family, but he probably wouldn't be able to do much. Monarch and Vondum will make mincemeat out of him.

After the dragon gifting, I agree his personality changed and he became a dick with a short fuse and a cruel streak. However, I see it more as him being unable to handle power, than Glaster rubbing off on him. He's been absorbing power from demons and evil dragons -- who's to say he hasn't been absorbing their evilness along with it?

Being Likable does not equate to being a good person. There are quite a few characters in this story that I like that I would have no problem calling evil sons of bitches. I adore that dork Bandurlok for example. He is a comedy goldmine and I want to see more of him. I especially want him to meet Kandric so I can see him quaking in his scales. That doesn't change the fact that he's an evil bastard.

The only time in the story where Kandric hadn't been either in training by Glaster or was already trained by him was one of the very first flashbacks in the first chapter. Even at the very start of the story when he had rusted metal put to his skin he had Glaster's influence all over him. It is extremely telling that one of his first thoughts when seeing Jamon and Conth was that they would make good presents for Glaster and that he wanted to play with them as well. 

By the time he meets up with Vondum, we learn that Kandric had already worked with slaves with Glaster before, and this was further enforced by Glasters own mouth in this latest chapter. Kandric enjoyment of using slaves, especially enslaved nobles, is something that was with him from the start. Glaster himself stated that Kandric expected the slaves to do everything to him that he did for Glaster. He learned the behavior FROM Glaster. 

We also know in his training of Jamon that his methods were from Glaster as well, including the not eating before your master did. Kandric also says to Jamon flat out that he likes him, but he also enjoys forcing him to do things, and he doesn't know what to make of that with himself. Kandric's mean streak has only grown more pronounced with his power and confidence, but it was always there. 

As for the giftings influencing him, that's hard to say. I do like that idea a lot, but until that is confirmed it is hard to really say one way or another if that's happening. 

Kandric also demonstrates what I'm talking about in this latest chapter. He outright tells Glaster when he is getting admonished for leaving those kids in the spirit realms as an implied threat was no different than Glaster teleporting him out to the middle of nowhere with the implicit threat of being able to leave him there. It was a quintessential "I learned it from watching you" moment, and Glaster begrudgingly respects it. 

So yes, I would say Glaster corrupted Kandric's personality. Whether or not he is likable (and I do like Kandric) has little bearing on that in my eyes. 

[Demented]

On 1/1/2022 at 5:40 PM, Zergrinch said:

I am undecided about Conner. I know he's got a lot of screen time, but he feels like a deus ex machina to me, in the same vein as Kandric. Need some exposition in dark magic and how the spells work? Conner knows all about it. Want to talk about primordial gods? Conner has a pact with one of them all along. Jealous of tattoos with hammerspace? Guess who has them.

I don't think I'd label Kandric or Connor as a Deus Ex Machina. Deus Ex Machina describes an unsolvable problem being easily solved by some all powerful thing or person that was contrived out of nowhere. If this Nax guy that was introduced in 33 were the most powerful entity ever and immediately solved the Gambra problem without anyone's help, that'd be what I'd call a Deus Ex Machina. Hopefully that doesn't turn out to be the case and Nax is just the exposition guy that I think he'll probably be. 

Kandric, Connor, and Aster are all masters in their fields, but there is in universe reasoning for that which has been largely consistent. Basically, trainable beings do not learn like us mundane people do. Their education was earned through magical giftings just as much as it was through the actual lessons and on hands training they received. It is implied both in these forums and in the story itself that trainable beings can just magically know stuff after gaining experience. It's more subtle when done incrementally, but it's quite noticeable when someone receives a large gifting all at once. 

So Connor being a veritable encyclopedia on all things dark magic makes a lot of sense. He didn't just learn it the normal way, it was magically downloaded into his noggin with all the dark mages and dark mystics he's killed and all the training he did under Anarton. 

Now what Kandric and Connor do have is Power Creep. The Power Scaling in this story has been launched from a catapult ever since the first two dragons got killed, and then subsequently boarded onto a space ship which is heading to orbit. I have not seen power creep this invasive since Super Saiyan was introduced in Dragon Ball Z. As the characters keep getting stronger and stronger, the list of threats they'd actually struggle against gets narrower and narrower. Kandric is practically a god making demons look like harmless bunnies to the slaughter, and Connor dragged an ancient green and killed it, half to spite Kandric for sending so many giftings his way. 

That's actually part of why I'm more excited about Kandric meeting King Wyhrem. His absurd power level does not remove his boyish insecurities over meeting a King, and I think that is a VERY good thing to latch onto. When your character can punch his way through any opponent, challenge him in other ways that his fist can't solve. 

[Togego]

14 hours ago, Demented said:

Now what Kandric and Connor do have is Power Creep. The Power Scaling in this story has been launched from a catapult ever since the first two dragons got killed, and then subsequently boarded onto a space ship which is heading to orbit. I have not seen power creep this invasive since Super Saiyan was introduced in Dragon Ball Z. As the characters keep getting stronger and stronger, the list of threats they'd actually struggle against gets narrower and narrower. Kandric is practically a god making demons look like harmless bunnies to the slaughter, and Connor dragged an ancient green and killed it, half to spite Kandric for sending so many giftings his way. 

Funny you mention Dragon Ball Z, it was exactly that point where I lost interest in it. 

[code]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAeXC40MZMg[/code]

Simply speaking, everytime a problem occured, the characters power levels increased so they could handle it.

Something similar is happening here.  What importance do other characters have now we got Power-Connor and Power-Kandric? There's nothing they won't be able to handle.

I really enjoyed Jamon's developement and Quavis, too, but Connor and Kandric are so far beyond them that nothing they do will have any importance anymore.

[Demented]

19 minutes ago, Togego said:

Funny you mention Dragon Ball Z, it was exactly that point where I lost interest in it. 

[code]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAeXC40MZMg[/code]

Simply speaking, everytime a problem occured, the characters power levels increased so they could handle it.

Something similar is happening here.  What importance do other characters have now we got Power-Connor and Power-Kandric? There's nothing they won't be able to handle.

I really enjoyed Jamon's developement and Quavis, too, but Connor and Kandric are so far beyond them that nothing they do will have any importance anymore.

I don't quite agree with that last point. While Kandric does suffer from power creep, not all of the story's conflicts can be solved through brute force. Like I said in that same post, the best way to handle power creep is to present problems that you cannot punch your way out of. Present problems that Jamon or Quavis are uniquely motivated and equipped to deal with and you could have quite interesting stories with them. 

I also really like the idea that was presented in earlier chapters of higher echelon beings staying in the back and letting the lower echelon beings gain experience rather than hogging all the spotlight. I really think the story would benefit a lot from bringing that back and reigning in Kandric and Connor in particular to give the other myriad of characters chances to shine and grow. 

[Zergrinch]

Perhaps that is an option for spinoffs, but certainly not in the KANDRIC Saga. Can't have the titular character take a back seat, narratively speaking as well as logically speaking. There is no way he will do so when his brothers and friend are in the clutches of a demon lord.

Deus ex machina may be a bit too strong, since they don't immediately one-shot enemies. I will say, however, that the powers of Kandric and Conner essentially inflate to whatever the story requires, and the audience is being asked to accept that they had it all along.

Case in point. When Conner was first introduced, he was basically this pathetic slave whose spellbook has been destroyed. But now, all along he was this super powerful wraith who's always had this connection with one of the primordial gods. 

This is the same with Kandric to a lesser extent, because at least we are told early on that he's hungry for knowledge and has been doing nightly trainings with spirits all along. So we know that he's leveling up in the background even if we don't get to see it. Still, knowing what we know now, he could easily defeat Vondum in chapter 2 if he really put his mind to it.

That circles back to another reason I like Aster. I haven't seen any crazy power up shenanigans with him, and all the new skills that he showed so far were well telegraphed in advance, such as his borrowing of his pets' abilities and subsequent training with Sagell.

On the whole though, Kyle seems to be really fond of the "hidden depths" trope (see https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HiddenDepths) It's present not only in Kandric, but also with the Illorc lead in Crags, both Robins, and the Earth-core slave who's currently part of Joel's entourage in Brile, whose name currently eludes me.

 

[Demented]

That is a fair point, can't really backseat the main character in his own story. I'd then reaffirm what I said that you really need to bring on challenges that Connor and him cannot bulldoze through then. We know what they are good at, but what do they struggle with? Connor had some pretty good characterization with his self hatred and his trying to learn to love and be loved for example. I'd like to see him explore those emotional aspects of himself, cause no matter how much he levels up he's not going to be able to speed his way through that. That's going to take work. 

For Kandric, they've been dancing around this idea of him accepting responsibilities as a leader. I'd really like for them to lean into that. 

...I also really want to see Kandric on a ship at least once lol. We've been hearing the tales about his sea sickness, but I want to see it in action! lol

[Silver]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:20 AM, Demented said:

This is Lawful Evil in the way I see it. 

Lawful means that you are a person who puts much stock into the letter of the law. If it is written as a rule, you will follow it. Not only that, you have strong opinions about other people breaking said laws. 

Evil in my eyes is the disregard of another person life, autonomy, and/or well being for your own personal ends, whatever those may be. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a cartoonish villain, but it does mean you have a callous disregard for other people and will do things to them that people will find heinous. 

Now lets combine those two terms together while looking at Glaster: 

Glaster unquestionably follows the letter of the law. He is quite versed in the rules of Eagleonia as well as other nations. He also refuses to go beyond his rank to do something he normally would love to do. One example off the top of my head was his handling of the royal boys in the early chapters. He outright refuses to do anything with them, even tough he deeply desires it, purely because it would betray the trust of those above his station and would be seen as a crime. That is actually why he felt he needed to come clean to the Garm and Alphar over his handling of Kandric. He found himself well outside of his station bedding a prince of a very powerful nation, and it was only the training he provided Kandric and the Stockholm syndrome that saved his ass. 

Glaster, at the very start of the story, gave Kandric an ultimatum. One that Kandric actually references in the latest chapter. He said that he could agree to the terms and get trained by Glaster, or he could refuse them and get bought from his mother as a slave and receive no training. We also see in Glaster's internal dialogue in that very same chapter that while he hated the idea of turning Kandric into a slave, he would have done it if he had refused. He completely disregarded Kandric's choice, well being, and future when he gave that ultimatum, hoping that the direness of the second option would compel Kandric to agree. This is called Quid Pro Quo in modern law and is very illegal, however in this setting there is no such law barring actions like this. 

So even Kandric, Glaster's crowning achievement in education, would have been trampled underfoot by Glasters desires had he not capitulated to his terms. Yes, he and others have received educations and positions of power and influence, much like I'm sure similar deals have been made in Hollywood with actors and actresses. That does not change the underlying truth that their wellbeing and their personal choice were a distant second to Glaster's own desires.

Vondum is someone I would describe as Neutral Evil, though that alignment has been getting shaken as the story progressed. 

Neutral describes someone who only looks out for themselves and marches to their own beat. If they work for someone, it is because that person aligns with what they want. 

Vondom learned how to be neutral evil through his time in those Forge. He learned to watch out only for himself and to stand on his own to feet, even if it meant leaving his brother behind and disregarding his fate. Those lessons have seeped into how he treats his slave boys. Those who don't have a backbone and won't stand up for themselves will find themselves earning his endless ire and cruelty. Those that do however show themselves to have the same backbone he did in the Black Dragon's Forge. 

You are absolutely right if Kandric had not have intervened, Jamon would have likely been broken and sold to a brothel. However, the strength that Jamon showed later, even at the cost of whipping his own brother, earned Vondums respect as well as brought him back to that time in his life. Vondum, unlike Glaster, has this moment of honesty and clarity with Jamon where he speaks with him and tells him to not let go of his humanity. He tells Jamon to remind himself of what he's doing to people, to even hurt himself if he needs to, so that he does not grow addicted to the power. 

It is that moment of clarity and the internal struggle he has with how he is that sets him apart from Glaster. Glaster justifies his actions with bribes and ultimatums, but Vondum understands that he is absolutely fucked up. 

While this distinction would not mean much in a court of law, I say it does say that Vondum has more of a chance to change his ways and become less evil than he was. In fact, that's exactly what we've been seeing over the course of the story. Vondum having flashes of humanity and an internal struggle with how he acts towards people that is fundamentally missing within Glaster. 

Does that justify any of Vondums heinous acts? No, nor would I ever claim they would. Instead, what I'm saying is he has a chance of being rehabilitated, and that I'd say would put him in a slightly better light than our One Armed Epstein. 

Being Likable does not equate to being a good person. There are quite a few characters in this story that I like that I would have no problem calling evil sons of bitches. I adore that dork Bandurlok for example. He is a comedy goldmine and I want to see more of him. I especially want him to meet Kandric so I can see him quaking in his scales. That doesn't change the fact that he's an evil bastard.

The only time in the story where Kandric hadn't been either in training by Glaster or was already trained by him was one of the very first flashbacks in the first chapter. Even at the very start of the story when he had rusted metal put to his skin he had Glaster's influence all over him. It is extremely telling that one of his first thoughts when seeing Jamon and Conth was that they would make good presents for Glaster and that he wanted to play with them as well. 

By the time he meets up with Vondum, we learn that Kandric had already worked with slaves with Glaster before, and this was further enforced by Glasters own mouth in this latest chapter. Kandric enjoyment of using slaves, especially enslaved nobles, is something that was with him from the start. Glaster himself stated that Kandric expected the slaves to do everything to him that he did for Glaster. He learned the behavior FROM Glaster. 

We also know in his training of Jamon that his methods were from Glaster as well, including the not eating before your master did. Kandric also says to Jamon flat out that he likes him, but he also enjoys forcing him to do things, and he doesn't know what to make of that with himself. Kandric's mean streak has only grown more pronounced with his power and confidence, but it was always there. 

As for the giftings influencing him, that's hard to say. I do like that idea a lot, but until that is confirmed it is hard to really say one way or another if that's happening. 

Kandric also demonstrates what I'm talking about in this latest chapter. He outright tells Glaster when he is getting admonished for leaving those kids in the spirit realms as an implied threat was no different than Glaster teleporting him out to the middle of nowhere with the implicit threat of being able to leave him there. It was a quintessential "I learned it from watching you" moment, and Glaster begrudgingly respects it. 

So yes, I would say Glaster corrupted Kandric's personality. Whether or not he is likable (and I do like Kandric) has little bearing on that in my eyes. 

I think you are being too hard with them all. They are just a product of their time and environment. It is hard to put a judgement on the way they act using our first world mentality and standard.

[Demented]

3 hours ago, Silver said:

I think you are being too hard with them all. They are just a product of their time and environment. It is hard to put a judgement on the way they act using our first world mentality and standard.

Even if you purely looked from the settings perspective of Morality my reading of things doesn't change all that much. Even other characters in the setting have referred to the two of them as evil and similar to demons, Like Falk when he mentioned he didn't like Glaster.

I also would like to point out that me making these observations does not equate to me not liking them. I like Glaster and Vondum quite a bit and find them interesting characters. However, my enjoyment of them as character does not mean they are somehow good guys, nor do I think they are intended to be. This is a harsh and cruel setting with very few people one would consider truly good. 

Which is perfectly fine at the end of the day. This is a story after all, and what is a story without conflict. 

[Silver]

1 hour ago, Demented said:

Even if you purely looked from the settings perspective of Morality my reading of things doesn't change all that much. Even other characters in the setting have referred to the two of them as evil and similar to demons, Like Falk when he mentioned he didn't like Glaster.

I also would like to point out that me making these observations does not equate to me not liking them. I like Glaster and Vondum quite a bit and find them interesting characters. However, my enjoyment of them as character does not mean they are somehow good guys, nor do I think they are intended to be. This is a harsh and cruel setting with very few people one would consider truly good. 

Which is perfectly fine at the end of the day. This is a story after all, and what is a story without conflict. 

I think Falk not liking Glaster is just the way for Kyle to show that there are many levels of gray and not everything is black and white. As someone sometime said "It takes darkness to give light a meaning" (or something similar;).

I have to admit that the time spent by Kandric planning on how to make a business with prostitution using the kids in the jail made me cringe. It is not my preferred part of the story.... but I guess it's probably needed for the story to stand as a whole.

 

[Demented]

2 minutes ago, Silver said:

I think Falk not liking Glaster is just the way for Kyle to show that there are many levels of gray and not everything is black and white. As someone sometime said "It takes darkness to give light a meaning" (or something similar;).

I have to admit that the time spent by Kandric planning on how to make a business with prostitution using the kids in the jail made me cringe. It is not my preferred part of the story.... but I guess it's probably needed for the story to stand as a whole.

 

I would agree with Kyle on that. There are certainly characters in this story that I would categorize as more evil aligned. 

That is an interesting section you brought up, cause I think it highlights what I mean about Glaster influencing Kandric's moral compass. Kandric made that deal emulating Glaster and even thought of it as something he could show to Glaster later for praise. Glaster himself has made similar deals in the past where he bought up kids from those who owed him outstanding debts or merely had the kid work off the debt for them. Glaster even elaborated on that in this recent chapter, saying that he used such deals to give Kandric more "variety." 

Kandric is the way he is, both for good and for ill, because of Glaster. Glaster had even more of an influence over him than his travesty of a mother. 

Ironically, while I would say Kaylaria is not as evil as either Glaster or Vondum by a fairly wide margin, I would also say I personally dislike her a great deal more than either of them. 

[Silver]

9 hours ago, Demented said:

I would agree with Kyle on that. There are certainly characters in this story that I would categorize as more evil aligned. 

That is an interesting section you brought up, cause I think it highlights what I mean about Glaster influencing Kandric's moral compass. Kandric made that deal emulating Glaster and even thought of it as something he could show to Glaster later for praise. Glaster himself has made similar deals in the past where he bought up kids from those who owed him outstanding debts or merely had the kid work off the debt for them. Glaster even elaborated on that in this recent chapter, saying that he used such deals to give Kandric more "variety." 

Kandric is the way he is, both for good and for ill, because of Glaster. Glaster had even more of an influence over him than his travesty of a mother. 

Ironically, while I would say Kaylaria is not as evil as either Glaster or Vondum by a fairly wide margin, I would also say I personally dislike her a great deal more than either of them. 

Kandric certainly learned how to run a business and make a profit from one of the best. And I agree that his moral compass was molded to be very close to what he saw in his mentor.

I do not completely agree with your take on Kaylaria. She made some bad choices for sure... but I feel she tried her best to make do with what she had. My feeling is that she could have at least taught he children how to read... but she at least made them speak correctly. She wanted her first born to stay safe and because she had not much control over what would happen, decided to make extreme choices. She still broke that rule when the life of her husband was at risk. Again, she is a product of her environment, as learned when she was a child in the Alphar court. I do not agree with her choices but do not blame her for doing (what she thought was) her best.

For me, Vondum is far more evil because he choose repeatedly to hurt others and make them suffer for his personal profit and enjoyment. Again he learned that from the Black dragons... so even he has some excuses (extenuating circumstance ?) for what he did. 

Glaster is not as bad as Vondum... but he has no such excuse for the way he is acting.

[Demented]

7 minutes ago, Silver said:

Kandric certainly learned how to run a business and make a profit from one of the best. And I agree that his moral compass was molded to be very close to what he saw in his mentor.

I do not completely agree with your take on Kaylaria. She made some bad choices for sure... but I feel she tried her best to make do with what she had. My feeling is that she could have at least taught he children how to read... but she at least made them speak correctly. She wanted her first born to stay safe and because she had not much control over what would happen, decided to make extreme choices. She still broke that rule when the life of her husband was at risk. Again, she is a product of her environment, as learned when she was a child in the Alphar court. I do not agree with her choices but do not blame her for doing (what she thought was) her best.

For me, Vondum is far more evil because he choose repeatedly to hurt others and make them suffer for his personal profit and enjoyment. Again he learned that from the Black dragons... so even he has some excuses (extenuating circumstance ?) for what he did. 

Glaster is not as bad as Vondum... but he has no such excuse for the way he is acting.

I don't put much stock in excuses personally. Someone could rationalize a thousand different excuses for why they did something, but at the end of the day the act was still committed. Something that would affect their rating in my eyes would be if they are willing to change and at least struggle against the actions they've committed in the past. Vondom had a very telling conversation with Jamon which gave him a lot of texture in my eyes.

He wanted Jamon to make sure he didn't end up like Vondom, to make sure he fully knew and understood what he was doing to people as a lead slave and to not let go of that spark of good inside of him. That right there, and the general improvement in Vondom's disposition and behavior since the start of the story, tells me that he has at least the capacity of being reformed. 

Glaster has no such moments of clarity in the story. He is absolutely unrepentant, and as I've pointed out before, he would have even ruined Kandric's life if he hadn't made the better of the two choices he was given back then when he first met the one armed man. In that respect, I would put Vondom as a slightly better person. Each has their pros and cons of course, but that one distinction does make something of a difference in my eyes as far as their alignment ratings are concerned. 

Kaylaria is quite strange and fickle, and rather dumb to boot. This isn't even my own reading, but the opinion of many characters in universe as well. Yes she was put into a terrible situation by Prince Rovanall, who makes her look positively saintly and intelligent in comparison, however that does not take away from the truly terrible parenting we saw of her in the few times she was represented.

• She was extremely neglectful of Kandric, to the point where he would have abandoned her had he not wanted to provide for his siblings.
• She had absolutely no money sense, spending all of the money that Kandric provided the family.
• She threatened her children constantly with abandonment for the pettiest of reasons, and was physically abusive to boot. 
• It is quite telling that every child of hers that she DIDN'T have direct authority over are the ones that are the most educated, the most capable, and the highest echelon, while the kids she kept at her side cannot read even a single language in some cases. 
• Even the Alphar court, which she supposedly takes her parenting cues from, finds her completely incompetent and would never let her raise another child if they had anything to say about it. 

Time and time again she proved herself to be completely ineffective as a mother. Even if you take in the unfair circumstances she was in due to her imbecile of a father, it does not excuse the neglect and the constant threat of being disowned, as well as the squandering of whatever funds Kandric managed to provide.