Is it Ethical ???

[ken barber]

There we agree Jack. And by the way welcome to the debates. One thing you will notice is that most of these debates are conducted civilly with intelligent ideals and ideas being presented by both sides. 

[Jack Schaeffer]

Ken,

 

Just another reason to be happy to join the realm. I'm liking it here so far. Haven't wandered into an unwelcome jousting match yet!

[ken barber]

Ken,

 

Just another reason to be happy to join the realm. I'm liking it here so far. Haven't wandered into an unwelcome jousting match yet!

Those usually happen in the politics section and though this turned into a heated debate about ethics and morals and discrimination it was still in effect a discussion of the original concept

[Jack Schaeffer]

I'll be sure to stay out of there. I can only get in trouble there, I'm sure...grin. I have the scars to prove it!

[tigrillon]

You could Google it pretty quickly, the definition is pretty clear-cut.  Ethics are about the framework of right and wrong given to you, by a profession or by society or whatever.  Morals are what comes from within you.  A doctor performing an abortion is most certainly ethical, but depending on your perspective may or may not be moral.  A prosecutor witholding evidence that might provide reasonable doubt to the defense is most assuredly unethical, but some may feel it a moral decision (E. G. maybe the police screwed up and if the defense hears about it, key evidence gets tossed that puts the knife in the child-raping murder's hand).

 

If you want to take a little advice: NEVER tell anyone if he had Googled he would know the "true meaning" of a complex concept. Complex concepts like morality and ethics are never clear-cut, there are always severeal different definition, and the diference between moral and ethics is especially tricky. And if you actually looked into tose easy to Google article, you'd have found at least six different explanations and several warninngs about the not-so-clear-cut-ness of the topic.Including several ones telling morals be given by society. On the first page.

 

In your examples, what you call ethical is better called legal, and what you call moral many would call ethical. And there are those who would claim morality to be strictly clingig to the rules, while ethics may demand to bend the rules, which would basically swap morals and ethics in your examples.

 

But, if I take your definition, I have still to wonder what your remark is about. Because this whole thread is about personal views, in your definition morals.So how could the difference you mentioned play into this? The only interpretation of yout remark I can think of is one I just hope you didn't really mean ...

Edited December 8, 2014 by tigrillon

[Rilbur]

Before I begin, the example I gave was rapidly and crudely contrived just to make a point.  Frankly, I could easily see some moral issues with the attorneys actions in it -- I just needed a quick example.

But, if I take your definition, I have still to wonder what your remark is about. Because this whole thread is about personal views, in your definition morals.So how could the difference you mentioned play into this? The only interpretation of yout remark I can think of is one I just hope you didn't really mean ...

We got into this because someone was asking about ethics.  Look at the title.  Ethically, there's no issues with buying (or not buying) the books of an author's whose personal views you don't like.  Then people started adding a moral dimension to it, and as you can see from the rest of the thread, it's a very gray area morally.

 

And yes, the two concepts are closely related.  And my answer is very much a 'dictionary definition' that overlooks the way modern culture has slowly been merging the concepts.  I tend to be a bit by-the-book when it comes to meanings.

[larkin]

You want to read Enders Game, read it, you don't want to, don't..

I know homosexuals that don't like heterosexuals. They call them breeders.  I know lesbians that hate all men.  To some, even gay men are suspect.  And I know a people that hate fags.  Can I change them?  Can you change them?  This is the essential problem with "Being Out Proud, Say It Out Loud!"  It provokes the conservative right just like PussyRiot provoked the Russians authorities. 

The fight for civil rights has been going backwards in the last decade.  If you think that being queer has problems,  Try, "Stop and Frisk", "Stand your ground and fire",  Mass black incarceration where sentences for trivial crimes are in life destroying decades instead of a few months.  This is genocide in slow motion.

I am not trying to make comparison I am saying that we live in a brutal culture where the political climate can easily go against any group they choose. Today, immigrants, tomorrow, black shoplifters.  All people have prejudice but the state uses these human impulses to oppress us all.   

Gay people have made a lot of progress.  You aren't thrown into prison just for being queer anymore.  This is a major accomplishment.  

Gay marriage is a Trojan Horse.  Since when do 2 people need the state to swear an oath between each other?  Can state keep you together?

Especially in this age of surveillance and political correctness, Your sexual preference should be private matter to be shared only with people you want and not the state.  It is probably too late for most of us but we are entering a new age where keeping a low profile could become a life or death matter.

 

   

   

      

[Rilbur]

Gay marriage is a Trojan Horse.  Since when do 2 people need the state to swear an oath between each other?  Can state keep you together?

Calling the rather important rights that come with marriage (tax changes, automatic power of attorney, a legal relationship as 'family' taht can, in fact, override other family member's rights, etc etc) a 'trojan horse' is...  Well, the least offensive word I can come up with is 'shortsighted'.

Gay marriage isn't about the right to say your vows.  It's about having the state respect those vows the way it does for straight couples.

[larkin]

Calling the rather important rights that come with marriage (tax changes, automatic power of attorney, a legal relationship as 'family' taht can, in fact, override other family member's rights, etc etc) a 'trojan horse' is...  Well, the least offensive word I can come up with is 'shortsighted'.

Gay marriage isn't about the right to say your vows.  It's about having the state respect those vows the way it does for straight couples.

Rilbur,  Thank you for responding.  Please excuse my dissent on this issue.  It is a personal opinion.

I think that gay marriage should be legal. I think that if you want a same sex, legally recognized union you should be able to achieve it.  

I just think it is a mistake.

My views are unorthodox even for the queer community that strives so hard for acceptance. I believe that negatives far out weight the positive gains for a socially recognized gay marriage. (I am primarily speaking about men)

I have been out and have had 4 or 5 relationships that had substance but had run its course.  When men separate for the most part, it is agreeable, each going their separate way.  Being compelled to stay in a relationship that has gone bad breeds acrimony or worse, betrayal. 

A man in his 40's has found the love of his life in an innocent 24 year old.  They marry and a year later the young one has him in court for alimony because he has never worked a day in his life and now needs support.  It won't take long for "Goldbrickin, male whores to figure it all out."

 Pre-nupts usually do not hold up in court and I'm sorry, men do like to ramble.  

Straight marriage is at an all time low and it is largely due to lopsided resolutions and custody disputes where the male pays for everything.  Single men have realized that they can get laid and have money left over for a new computer and the latest video game.  Without a wife, their needs are pretty simple.    

Marriage is down to 50% from 79%, 30 years ago.  Add that to a 50% divorce rate and you find a very small fraction of blissfully married couples.  Why would gay people be any different?  Is there something magical about being gay?  The money you save in taxes may be tiny compared to the added costs and crisis.

In every male/male relationship I have seen, once the honeymoon is over, You will find the giver and the taker.  Sexually this can be very hot....for awhile but once it is over, it has the potential to be pure hell.

You do not need to marry to buy a house together.  Just form an S chapter corporation that has the terms of dissolution already built in.  

 

Rilbur, I'm not even done.

Let's not forget the police state surveillance that is rivaling any that has ever happened in history. 15 years of war without end, resource depletion, debasement of the currency and all manufacturing jobs have been shipped to Asia, 2.5 million people in prison and the militarizing of the police. 

If things get ugly, they'll be looking around for scapegoats to blame and no one likes fags.

The Dutch are great people and their government was always very efficient. They kept precise records on everyone.  When the Germans occupied Holland in 1940, they said, "Where are your Jews?"  The records were all there.

So, I am not against people in love and living together but what business is it of the State?  Why make it easy for them?

[Shayn059]

I do concert security for a living. There is a certain southern band that is really well known and big. I worked backstage at their dressing room door with the orders that only red passes were allowed in. A band members wife came and wanted it but she had the blue pass. I didn't know who she was I couldn't allow her in. I very politely told her I guess there was a mistake made with her pass but she would have to go to the production office and have it fixed or ok'd for me to allow her in. She thanked me then ten minutes later the whole band came out screaming at me calling me racial names. Now I realize they are a bunch of red neck asses, but that doesn't change my views on the music. It's still good though I don't like them very much.