Amnesty? Not Hardly

[ken barber]

The Presidents recent executive order is the subject of much debate. 

 

Here are the points being debated

 

1. The President does not have the authority for this Executive Order.

The president is not acting unilaterally, but pursuant to his statutory authority. Wide discretion over deportation priorities has long been conferred on the executive branch by Congress, and it is being exercised in this case consistent with policies such as family unification that have been endorsed by Congress.

 

2. The President has Granted Amnesty to Illegal Immigrants

No one has been granted “amnesty,” either literally or functionally. Even though the action is breathtaking in scope, there is nothing legally remarkable about what the administration is doing, or the legal analysis supporting it. The announced “deferred action” provides temporary administrative relief from deportation for aliens who are the parents of citizens, or the parents of lawful permanent residents. “Deferred action” is an exercise of discretion in which officials may temporarily defer the removal of an alien. The grant of deferred action in this case will remain in place for three years, is subject to renewal, and can be terminated at any time at the discretion of the Department of Homeland Security. As Eric Posner, who served in the Office of Legal Counsel under the first President Bush, notes, the president “is just doing what countless Congresses have wanted him to do”—setting priorities for deportation enforcement.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/11/anyone_who_thinks_the_legal_arguments_behind_obama_s_immigration_order_are.html

[Kyle Aarons]

This is a political sham in a massive and shameful way. It is throwing a bone to illegal, and like it or not they are illegal. They broke the law and are flaunting the fact they broke the law. The B.S. E.O. is a whole lot of nothing other than a way to piss off some and get praise from others while doing nothing, which is exactly what the government has been doing about this problem for decades. This is a ball-less act and a flip off of those who want to gain status of legal US residency by going about things the proper way. Nothing more. It sows just how little the executive branch cares about the laws it is supposed to enforce and the country it is supposed to protect.

[Rilbur]

You know Kyle, you can shout 'illegal' all you like, but given that the article linked gives very good reasons for the order to be considered legal, you're going to need to do more than spout off a bunch of right-wing nonsense to have a viable position.  Facts and arguments would support your position far more than rhetoric and insults.

 

Edit:

 

And remember, the plural of data is NOT anecdotes!

[ken barber]

Rilbur, 

you just have to learn to ignore the repeated rhetoric from the rignt, its their bully pulpit and they wont give it up no matter how often it sounds ridiculous to us.

[Rilbur]

Rilbur, 

you just have to learn to ignore the repeated rhetoric from the rignt, its their bully pulpit and they wont give it up no matter how often it sounds ridiculous to us.

Ken, if we can teach them the basics of civil debate, they'll be halfway to convinced.  And much more effective at their job of playing devil's advocate.

[seabird]

You are ALL wrong on this matter. FACT- Crossing the border into the United States without permission IS against the law, making those who do so, Criminals. FACT - Many of those crossing the border into the United States are already  criminal in their own country involved in illegal narcotics traffic. FACT - Many, if not most of those crossing the border illegally have no intention of becoming American Citizens. They come here, clinging to their own traditions and culture and insist they be catered to in the own language. They refuse to even learn the language of our land.

 

I live not too far from the border between Mexico and the United States and have learned to keep a shotgun leaning against the wall of my bedroom. Most mornings, I see caravans of illegal "entrants" carrying huge backpacks crossing the ridge above my home.  I am told by the authorities that those backpacks contain narcotics that are both illegal and highly toxic.

 

You can all scream and shout about the rights and wrongs of the matter, but the simple fact is these people have no intention of becoming Americans, their desire is to convert our American Culture into the same as what they left behind in Mexico.

 

I am NOT arguing whether they are good people or bad people, it is just that they are NOT our people! I would not advocate that we abuse them in any way, and I am concerned about the children among them. They deserve our care and assistance and, most certainly they deserve a hand up, however, hidden among those people are people who mean us great harm. Not only are representatives of the Drug Cartels hiding among the innocent border crossers, there are people who are not even members of any Hispanic group. The Border Patrol routinely apprehends men from the Middle East, presumably, Muslims. There are thousands of miles of border and it is mostly unprotected. There is no "wall", there is no fence or even a road. It is mostly lonely, unprotected desert. We are playing a game of Russian Roulette with our own safety. Eventually, something is going to cross that border that will kill many Americans and our ability to stop it is almost nonexistent!

 

You may call me a scare monger or worse, but I live here and I see first hand what is going on, day after day. I do not excuse the political pandering going on in Washington and BOTH political parties bear equal blame. The problem has been building for as long as I can remember (the late 1930's and early 1940's) and it began to accelerate during the Kennedy Administration. (that is a time period, NOT an accusation) No administration since has been willing to address the problem, so it has been getting worse since that time.

 

What Mr. Obama has done, MIGHT help those who have come here illegally, but, I believe it will make a bad situation worse, both for the "illegals" and for our National Politics. The court wrangling is going to disrupt our entire government and polarize our population like nothing else has done since the American Civil War. As awful as it sounds, I believe we MAY be seeing a breakup of our National Identity and the beginning of cracks in The American State that may well lead to territories carved out for the exclusive use of Hispanic People and no longer be part of The United States of America. There is strong sentiment among many Hispanics already living here to do just that!

 

Charles Bird

SeaBird

 

 

[ken barber]

Seabird
 

Opinion " You are ALL wrong on this matter."

 

Speculation " Many of those crossing the border into the United States are already  criminal in their own country involved in illegal narcotics traffic."

 

Speculation " Many, if not most of those crossing the border illegally have no intention of becoming American Citizens"

 

Pure Speculation " simple fact is these people have no intention of becoming Americans, their desire is to convert our American Culture into the same as what they left behind in Mexico."

 

invalid statement " it is just that they are NOT our people"

                People are people there is no quantifying this.

 

Exaggeration "Our ability to stop it is almost nonexistent!"

 

Fact -Addressing the President of the United States as Anything other than The President is an insult to the office, the Legacy and the history of this country.

I will not debate politics with anyone that refuses to honor the basic traditions of this Great Nation.

[Rilbur]

Fact:  Those who cross the border illegally are criminals.  True.

Fact:  A number of the people crossing are already criminals, involved in the drug trade or other illegal activities.  Whether that's a significant number or a majority is besides the point.

I'll ignore your anecdotes, since the plural of anecdote isn't data.

 

Fact:  None of that has anything to do with the discussion at hand.  You're dragging in extraneous data in order to fuel spurious arguments that have nothing to do with this discussion.

 

The discussion at hand, such as it is, is about the Executive Order and it's legality.

 

Fact:  The president hasn't ordered that illegal immigrants be allowed to stay, he's deferred action on one set of immigrants (those who could easily win a court battle to be considered legal, based on having close relatives who are legal) to focus on acting against those who are criminals in ways above and beyond being here illegally.  As referenced in the article that started this discussion, whether you like it or not this is a legal use of the principle of prosecutorial discretion.

 

Oh, and further fact:

 

We fought a civil war to establish in indissolubility of the union.  Those immigrants may want to try and take that land, but if they try there's clear precedent to say they'll get smacked down as hard as it takes.  I don't care how well armed they think they are, the Army is better trained, better equipped, and better supplied than they can ever be.  The same cultural issues that make their presence worrisome prohibit any possibility of decent training and screw with their ability to maintain a supply over a prolonged period of time.  As for arms, well, they might manage to find a few decent small-arms and maybe some explosives, but there's a far cry between a stash of assault rifles and the type of material the US Army hands out on a regular basis.

[ken barber]

Rilbur Up until your

"Oh, and further fact" I was with you after that I don't really  see the point

[seabird]

Rilbur, et, al. -- I would suggest that you come to where I live and observe the border and who/what crosses it for a while, before you claim I do not know what I am speaking about. I LIVE here!

 

It is not my purpose to agree or disagree with anyone, I was merely pointing out   that the information being used was not complete. It also is not my purpose to argue or inflame any discussion, we each have our opinions and, in many cases, we each are probably correct in so far as what we have personally observed. I would in no way, disagree with anyone using someone else's facts or knowledge. We all look at fact in a different light and to argue with someone, not knowing their sources and time frames is not only unwise, it borders on stupidity. My points are those I have personally observed or from those I have personally spoken with, as in the case of information supplied by a current Border Patrol Officer.

 

If I have offended anyone, I do apologize for the offense, but I remain behind the facts and they have been related to me by knowledgeable persons or my own observations.

 

 

Charles Bird

SeaBird

[Zach Caldwell]

Let's all try and calm down just a bit. This is one of those topics that raise the tension. Everyone thus far has made some interesting points. Everyone is looking at it from a certain position. None of us have all the facts or know the situation of every person who crosses the border.

 

Some argue that everyone crossing are doing so with drugs. I find this a bit hard to believe, I do not believe in an all or nothing argument. There are always exceptions. Therefore i put forth that the case could be made that many are coming across with drugs, but certainly not all. But I would also then have to ask, why?

 

It stands to reason, that the Coyotes that smuggle these people across are using the people by force, or as threat they have to do it to pay back the cost of getting them across the border. Do this and you do not have to pay but only this much or some such of scheme.

 

It stands to reason that there are people who want a better life and end up making some poor choices that put them in a position to be threatened and used and do something illegal just to get into the country for a chance to have something better.

 

Anyway, the point is we should all be careful not to paint these people with a broad brush.

 

Another point I want to make is to them holding on to their cultural identities and traditions and not "assimilating" into our US Culture. This is the nature of immigration. We can look at history, Irish, Italian, German, Chinese etc etc and you find that when they come, they strongly hold on to their culture and traditions, because one, that is what they are used to, second it provides a sense of stability in an unknown and new place. Over time, generations usually, the traditions tend to fade and to some extent folds itself into the American fabric of society. Cultural norms, are always going to be in a state of flux and change over time. This is not something to be feared but embraced. That is not to say that one side should or should not cater more to the other, but rather a mingling of the two in understanding and respect. But of which come in time.

[A.B]

Greek too, little Athens in NYC is a good example lol

[seabird]

Zac,

 

In general, I would say you are quite correct and I would leave it at that, were it not the danger I see coming at us. Always before, people coming to the United States were escaping from a perceived danger to begin again with a new beginning. The present situation is somewhat different. Yes, there are many Mexican people who come here, looking for a new life, a new beginning, if you will. Unfortunately, the present case is not so clear cut. Yes, some of them are traditional refugees, but, mingled among them are those who mean us ill. The latter include narco-runners, ultra nationalists who claim we stole the land from them, criminals looking to expand their businesses, and out right criminals looking to escape law enforcement in their own country. When you add into the mix, modern day terrorists, you have a soup too dangerous to sip. It is a case of Damned if we do, dead if we don't! THAT is why I say the present situation has the potential to fracture our country and our lives.

 

Charles Bird

SeaBird

[Zach Caldwell]

I see what you are saying and I would think that it is the same for just about any country that has a border and deals with immigration issues. The only thing I was cautioning against is the painting of all that cross the border as having ill will or ill intent. When an entire group is made out as the bad guy, then you run the risk of doing harm to that entire group and in turn doing harm to our own morals and ethics in the process.

 

The arguments that I have seen as of late, seems to exclude or ignore that fact that there are those crossing the border who are doing so because they are indeed escaping the horrors that are going on in their countries and thus should not be lumped into the ill will/criminal elements.

 

People seem to want things to be black and white and argue in terms of black and white. The world is not like that. There is far more grey areas than perhaps some would like or ignore altogether.

[Emperor Roland]

i leave for a little bit, and things go nuts.....

 

"you just have to learn to ignore the repeated rhetoric from the rignt, its their bully pulpit and they wont give it up no matter how often it sounds ridiculous to us."  Ken... the same thing can be said for the people on the right.... shall i quote the great Nancy Pelosi.... "WE have to pass it before we can read it"  Excuse me... that seems a little ridiculous to me.  but that is not what this topic is about, now is it.

 

Does President Obama have the right to do what he did.  well, that really depends on who's interpretation of the law you listen to.  frankly i am not smart enough to know what is lawful and what is not in this situation.  what i can say is what is right and what is wrong..

 

No matter what was done in the past, giving people who broke the law.... and there is NO arguing that point.  the PRIVILEGE to stay in this country is WRONG!  at least, that is how i feel.  everything else aside, it does not matter.  a wrong has been done, and it is being rewarded. plain and simple.

 

Now you can say that they have to do this, to stay here, and they have to abide by these guidelines, and it's not really regarding them because they have to work for it,  but... that's an invalid argument because... they broke the law.  what happens when someone breaks the law, they get punished. 

 

now do i think we should round them all up and send them home.  no... even if our government wasn't complete inept at doing even the simplest of tasks... deporting over 10 million people would be impossible. 

 

Whats the solution.  well frankly i am not sure.  what i do know is that more needs to be done to stop them from coming here, and then we need to figure out who can stay and who can not.  those that can stay, they need to pay a price for breaking our laws.  i mean, we are setting a great example when we show everyone that we are NOT a nation of laws any longer... only those that we want to enforce

[Rilbur]

Let's all try and calm down just a bit.

 

Why?  It's just getting fun!

 

And honestly, there's nothing quite so fun as stirring the pot by focusing on the debate fallacies each side is using to bolster it's position!

 

 

shall i quote the great Nancy Pelosi.... "WE have to pass it before we can read it"  Excuse me... that seems a little ridiculous to me.  but that is not what this topic is about, now is it.

 

If you're going to quote someone, at least do them the favor of providing the complete quotation.  Or perhaps even the context.  "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it – away from the fog of the controversy."  Or if you take the time for the context, perhaps that could have been better phrased as 'thanks to the sheer amount of rhetoric thrown out, the only way to really understand what this bill will do is to enact it'.

 

 

Now you can say that they have to do this, to stay here, and they have to abide by these guidelines, and it's not really regarding them because they have to work for it,  but... that's an invalid argument because... they broke the law.  what happens when someone breaks the law, they get punished. 

 

now do i think we should round them all up and send them home.  no... even if our government wasn't complete inept at doing even the simplest of tasks... deporting over 10 million people would be impossible. 

 

Roland, you make it sound like those guidelines don't themselves include a punishment, a price or penalty for breaking the law.  As I understand it, they're being charged a fine for their illegal entry -- a fine that will probably be a heavy financial burden on them.  But the payoff for that fine is that they are now free to begin the immigration process legally, without being forcibly deported.  Which makes far to much sense, given that the ones targeted by that portion of the order are those that have already, to a degree, 'integrated' into our society.  The ones with jobs, the ones who contribute, the ones who deserve to be here.

[Wolfhighlander]

What the President is doing is very gray as to whether he can do this or not.  There have been other Presidents who have done something similar, such as President Reagan and President Bush 41.  However, the difference this time, is that both of them did that as an extension of the immigration bill that Congress had passed. 

 

President Obama is doing this without that, and because of that, I believe that he is in the wrong in this case and is acting unilaterally.  It is virtual amnesty because it can be renewed over and over.  Is it real amnesty, not quite. 

 

Throughout his presidency, his administration has hindered the efforts of the Border Patrol to enforce the law, and it is against the law to come to this country illegally, no matter what people say.  I have heard interviews or read interviews of such agents about how their hands have been tied over and over in enforcing the law of entering the country illegally by this administration.

 

It was mentioned about the others who have come here illegally and legally and how they retain their cultures, etc.  Yes, that is true.  What makes this situation different is that the Hispanic cultures, make no attempt to assimilate into our culture.   The newest group that are doing that are those that demand that the US practice Sharia Law.  They expect us to cater to them and demand rights that they don't have, since they have not followed the legal process to be here.  The other cultures that were listed assimilated and became part of the American culture, not in generations, but within one generation.  In the 19th Century maybe two, but in the 20th it was within one. 

 

A good example of that were those from Mexico who came in the mid century.  Within in a generation they had become part of the American culture because they realized that that was their best chance to succeed.  They held onto their own culture, but they assimilated and did not demand that we cater to them.  Those that have been coming here for the last 40 years are making no effort at that and instead have demanded that we cater to them.  We should not have to cater to them, they should learn the language and become part of the culture or accept that they will get nowhere without doing so.  If they are here illegally, we should cater even less to them.

 

An example of their attitude was evident a few years ago when they marched in the streets of LA for some May Day demonstrations.  What were they carrying?  Mexican flags, not US flags, Mexican flags.  There were thousands in the streets, carrying the Mexican flag and demanding their rights, whether they were entitled to them or not.  Kids left schools to join the march.  They were yelling about Reconquista.  Reconquering what some of them believe is theirs: CA, AZ, NM.  The next year they did it again, although it was much smaller, but the Reconquista people put the word out to carry American Flags this time, because they saw how much of a negaitve impact carrying the Mexican flags did for them the year before.  There were a lot less people, the kids didn't leave the schools to join and they tried it again and it was even less the next time until the idea of the marches faded away.  The point is, they only carried the US Flags in a lame attempt to fool people.  They did not mean it, because they were still spouting their Reconquista agenda, this time under the US flag that means nothing to them.  Unlike prior cultures, they want theirs culture to be given preeminence here, at least in this border state.  There is no impetus to assimilate, because they are catered to.

 

Now they are limiting the free speech of someone in school by saying they can't wear a shirt with an American Flag on it to school, because it might offend someone.  Tough shit.  This is still the US and that is our flag.  If the flag of our country offends someone, then they don't belong here.  There is no law against wearing our Flag on a shirt.  If a person of Mexican descent wears his/her flag on a shirt, that's okay, they are merely hanging on to his culture, but we can't hang on to our culture.  Part of that is that this county has turned more and more into a Nanny State, where the government feels that they have to tell you what to do, because they believe it is good for you, not whether it is actually good for you, but because "They" say it is good for you.  But that is another issue, even though it is connected to this issue.

 

This Presidential Order on its face may not be illegal as some say it is, but I believe it is overstepping the authority of the Executive Branch.  Immigration Laws are under the Legislative Branch of the government, not the Executive Branch.  The President is wrong on this to usurp that power without a Law in place, as President's Reagan and Bush 41 did in the past.  They had a law to refer to, President Obama does not.

[ken barber]

Wolf,

You make some valid points however there this one of those time we seem to forget history. The Immigrants that came here during the industrial revolution clung to their cultures like a life preserver, The Irish brought gangs. The Chinese did not learn English and brought the opium trade with them.The Italians brought organized crime. They also brought many good things that have been assimilated to our culture. I am not arguing legal or illegal immigration in the post only that when we have a large influx of immigrants from one group we tend to see cultural bigotry raise its ugly head. Each time we gone through a transition the cultures that have come before did not assimilate willingly and were not assimilated with open arms. Terms like Mick and Wop and Chink were created as result of cultural differences.

 

 Lets not forget:

 

the Draft riots of 1862 The Irish Immigrants in New York City nearly destroyed what is now lower Manhattan. 

Irish immigration was opposed in the 1850s by the nativist Know Nothing movement, originating in New York in 1843. It was engendered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by Irish Catholic immigrants.

In 1891, a lynch mob stormed a local jail and hanged several Italians following the acquittal of several Sicilian immigrants alleged to be involved in the murder of New Orleans police chief David Hennessy

 

Here is an excerpt from an Essay by Ted Brackenmyre, who is considered an expert US historian
The “new” wave of immigrants came to America between the 1870’s and the 1920’s. ((Immigration to the United States, 1870-1920: http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/ellis-island/immigration-1870-1920.jpg)) These immigrants came in large numbers from southern and eastern European countries such as Italy, Greece, Poland, and Russia as well as Asian nations like China. ((19th Century US Immigration Statistics)) “New” immigrants were typically poorer and less educated than earlier immigrants. Moreover, these immigrants were very different than the typical American because they were overwhelmingly Catholic or Greek Orthodox, or Jewish, and unfamiliar with democratic government. These cultural differences prevented the “new” wave of immigrants from fully assimilating into American culture. Instead, “new” immigrants often congregated in close-knit communities that consisted only of members of their ethnicity.

 

Here is a good quote from a US Senator about Chinese immigration

Senator John P. Jones .."final conclusion was that the Chinese race is as obnoxious to us and as impossible for us to assimilate with as was the negro race. His race has outlived every other because it is homogeneous, and for that reason alone it has imposed its religion and peculiarities upon its conquerors and still lived. If immigration is not checked now, when it is within manageable limits, it will be too late to check it." ((Wisconsin State Journal, “The Chinese Bill,” 1882 14-March)) 

 

The point I am making is we have been there and done that all this talk of not willing to assimilate is not new to the Hispanic immigrants. We need to look at history and see how this was handled before not continue the eons old argument for bigotry. And I am sorry if that term insults anyone but lets call it what it is. Just like those before us we are afraid of the changes a new cultural influx will bring to "our way" of life. We stick to our culture and wave our flag and call it patriotism. Its not patriotism its not nationalism, its bigotry, its exclusion because they dont look, speak, or act the same as us. Plan and simple. 

[ken barber]

Decided to add more support to my cultural assimilation argument

 Each new wave of immigration to the United States has met with some degree of hostility and popular fears that immigrants will harm American society or will not conform to the prevailing “American way of life.” In 1751, Benjamin Franklin complained about the “Palatine Boors” who were trying to Germanize the province of Pennsylvania and refused to learn English

 

May 5, 1753 Benjamin Franklin fears that heavy German immigration will undermine and overwhelm the English colonial community in Pennsylvania. Franklin writes of the Germans, "Few of their Children in the Country learn English. They import many Books from Germany... The Signs in our Streets have Inscriptions in both Languages, and in some places only German... In short, unless the Stream of their Importation could be turned... they will soon so outnumber us, that all the advantages we have, will not in my Opinion be able to preserve our Language, and even our Government will become precarious."(Archdeacon 1983: 20). 

 

1849 Know-Nothings Begin

Protestant workingmen in New York City, alarmed by the rising tide of Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Germany, organize a secret society called "The Order of the Star-Spangled Banner" to fight against Catholic immigration. Its members swear an oath of secrecy, promising to respond to any questions about the Order by replying only, "I know nothing." They quickly come to be called "Know-Nothings."

 

The hostility of old line Americans to “foreigners” accelerated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as racial ideology and anti-Semitism also became part of American consciousness. It was thought that a literacy test would reduce immigration from Southern and Eastern Europe, which was sending an “alarming number of illiterates, paupers, criminals, and madmen who endangered American character and citizenship” 

Cities, where most immigrants settled, were derided and feared as places filled with dangerous people and radical ideas (Hawley 1972: 521). These sentiments were often formulated by intellectuals, but they resonated with many white Americans who were reared in rather parochial and homogenous rural and small town environments.

 

Looking backward, we can see that the impacts of the Age of Mass Migration from 1880 to 1924 were almost entirely opposite to those anticipated by contemporary observers. Based on standard measures of socioeconomic achievement, residential location, and intermarriage, the children and grandchildren of the “new immigrants” of the early 20th century have almost completely assimilated into American society (Alba and Nee 2003). Even groups such as Italian Americans that were considered to be a “community in distress” as late as the 1930s have blended into the American mosaic. A closer examination reveals that the “new immigrants” have remade American society in their image. The Anglo-centric core of the early 20th century has been largely replaced with a more cosmopolitan America that places Catholicism and Judaism on a par with Protestant denominations, and the Statue of Liberty has become the national symbol of a nation of immigrants. Perhaps the most important legacy of the Age of Mass Migration is that the children of Eastern and Southern European immigrants helped to pave the way for the New Deal of the 1930s, the Great Society of the 1960s, and the 1965 Immigration Act that allowed a new wave of immigration from Asia and Latin America to arrive.

[ken barber]

I would also like to point out the legality of the Executive order is based on a number of acts and laws

 

Immigration Act of 1891

• First comprehensive law for national control of immigration.
• Establishes Bureau of Immigration under Treasury.
• Directs deportation of aliens unlawfully in country.

Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1924

• Imposes first permanent numerical limit on immigration.
• Establishes the national origins quota system, which resulted in baised admissions favoring northern and western Europeans.

Immigration and Naturalization Act of June 27, 1952

• Continues national origins quota.
• Quota for skilled aliens whose services are urgently needed.

Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of October 3, 1965

• Repeals national origins quotas.
• Establishes preference system based on family unification and skills.
• Sets 20,000 per country limit for Eastern Hemisphere.
• Imposes ceiling on immigration from Western Hemisphere for the first time.

Immigration and Nationality Act Amendments of 1976

• Extends 20,000 per country limits to Western hemisphere.

Refugee Act of 1980

• Sets up first permanent and systematic procedure for admitting refugees.
• Removes refugees as a category from preference system.
• Defines refugee according to international, versus ideological standards.
• Establishes process of domestic resettlement.
• Codifies asylum status.

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986

• Institutes employer sanctions for knowingly hiring illegal aliens.
• Creates legalization programs.
• Increases border enforcement.

Immigration Act of 1990

• Increases legal immigration ceilings by 40 percent.
• Triples employment-based immigration, emphasizing skills.
• Creates diversity admissions category.
• Establishes temporary protected status for those in the U.S. jeopardized by armed conflict or natural disasters in their native countries.

Sources: Immigration and nationality Act of 1992; Jones 1992; Immigration and Nationalization Serviec 1991, Statistical Yearbook

[D'Artagnon]

Enough of talking about the problem.  What are our projected solutions?  We should stop looking to blame each other for the past, stop looking to politicize the present and put a fix to the future.

 

I offer for discussion the following ideas.  Let us debate the merits and consider what costs this might acrue. 

 

1.  for those with a more hawkish bend, Annex and Invade Mexico.  We have long had a problem in this country of starting fights without an objective, fighting for a nebulous and unclear goal and then continuing a military action without a foreseeable end, almost as if the fight itself was the issue,   And in all that time, with all the blood we've spilt and treasure we've spent, we've gained precious little.  We already have car factories in Mexico and send in our agents to work with Mexican military units fighting drug cartels.  Why not take some territory, annex the population, expand our coastline and shipping capability, then we can directly apply our own internal military force to the cartels, clean up the drug situation coming into the country, and there will be no immigration problem, because all Mexicans would then be Americans.

 

Oh sure, the flag might need some more stars, but hell, if we don't have a border until you get to Belize, you have much less area for border patrol to worry about, no need for that silly and, let's admit it, totally ineffectual fence idea.  It would be the largest US land gain since Jefferson financed Napolean's adventures in Europe back in 1803.

 

2.  Completely close all borders.  All of them.  Canada, sorry, you'll have to take a number.  Mexico, sorry, no hablas.  Europe, dear me, old man, can't do it.  MIddle East, not in my backyard.  Asia, sayonara.  Not even air traffic.  Keep them all out, let their problems be their own.  Kick out the UN, lock up all our ports, take all our technology and infrastructure from overseas.  Wall in Fortress America and let the rest of the world rot.

 

Naturally, this will have massive complications as far as commerce, economic growth, oil imports (you remember, what we started all those wars in the middle east for in the first place, I'm looking at you D. Cheney), iPhones, fruit and vegitable imports will basically cease (bye-bye bananas), and no more Japanese cartoons.  But it means that no terrorists will legally get into the country.  No "undesireables" (translation- people who aren't white straight christians) will flood our borders.  The lower classes (trailer trash, white supremesists, uneducated, poor, mentally challenged and physically challenged, including our returning war veterans with battle scars and injuries) will simply take the jobs that the "illegal" immigrants used to do, you know the ones that the "true" americans would never lower themselves to do.  It's their place after all, to support the rest of us.  Aren't we pretty.  And Oh So Pure.

 

3.  Actually let the government do something that the political parties wont let it do: GOVERN.  Congress has not done anything worthy of them getting re-elected, on all sides.  Before anyone chooses to challenge me on this, do your research.  Both sides have blocked, obstructed, and outright looked like spoiled children on this issue, in both houses.  Get off your asses and act like adults.  If Congress wants to pass laws, debate and actually address the problem, they should.  They shouldn't tell the President on the one hand "we need your leadership (Bohner)" and then get upset when the President takes action that Congress can't or wont.

 

And let's be perfectly honest.  Our Congress has dozens of necessary bills that need approval, ASAP.  Our highways and bridges (BRIDGES FOR FUCKS SAKE) are crumbling and need to be either repaired or replaced.  This is not a global warming "possibility."  This is a fact of engineering, that thing that Americans used to be good at but we let go because it was too expensive.  The next time a major structure collapses because of neglect, which one of you would like to tell someone's family that their loved one died because we disagreed in Congress about fixing our country from the inside.   We are going to need to expand the number of teachers in this country in the next five years.  This is a fact, based on the number of American Citizens already boosting our number of future citizens in the time honored and traditional way.  We will need more police and doctors and builders and factories and farmers, and all of this happens only with proper training, education and learning to apply the same.

 

We've been a country growing steadily dumber, more complacent and less willing to take necessary chances.  We used to be good as so much.  Now, the only thing America seems to be good at is the entertainment industry.  Where did the jobs go?  How do we get them back?  And why aren't we doing what we need to get them back.  The Chinese government, you remember them, the communists that live next to our Japanese friends, they own the bulk of our national debt.  Say that again slowly.  The Communists have the US Dollar in their pocket.

 

Our government is broken, has been for a while, and flinging blame wont fix it.  FIXING IT requires LEADERSHIP and GOVERNANCE.  Forget the party politics, let's just get things working.  Get the roads fixed.  Stop trying to hogtie education.  Upgrade our chemical infrastructure.  Build a freaking water transport pipeline to help balance the floods and droughts all over the country.  Which part of any of this doesn't make sense?

 

sorry, I just think that from time to time we get too wound up in the stupid infighting that we dont realize what we're doing while we haggle is either let things go to hell for lack of doing anything, or we beat it up in the tug of war between extremes.  The middle is where the greatest truth lives.  Let's go back there.

 

I appologize to the moderater team if any of that was too insensitive and explosive.  I appologize if any person feels that I'm picking on a particular political party over another, believe me, the blame is evenly leveled at them both.  I just want my country, not my country back, not my country one side or another.  I just want my country to look forward, deal with the present and actually honor the past.  We've come a long way, we have much farther to go.  I am hopeful, but come on guys... you can't take the field while you sit on the friggin' bench.

[ken barber]

Wow that was actually amazing. D'Artagnon hit the nail on the head. I apologize to everyone here for letting myself get dragged into the partisan game of blame. (new american past time). He is right we need to set aside our fears, our differences, our politics and find a middle ground or else the country will fall and crumble to dust around us as we argue whose fault it will be.

[Rilbur]

D'Artagnon, I bow to your far better stated position.

 

/me applauds

 

Edit:  What's ironic is he put his finger squarely on why I don't really care for politics, too!

[ken barber]

I want to thank all for the lively debate, even tough we need to find common ground be able to at least discuss issue is where it begins

[Kyle Aarons]

I really find it interesting to call my view as a right wing rant. I am curious how many illegals you all know and how closely you know them. I know several and have worked very closely with more than few. two of them qualify for this EO sham, but neither one is willing to bite on it. Just wonder if you who think this is a right wing take on things know why two who qualify want nothing to do with it?