Looking for advice

[Hunter]

So have I and when you have a thick book and loose your place without recalling which chapter or whatnot then it is difficult as well.  So again, tit for tat, lol.  Either way it's a bummer, but I'd venture to guess most people don't read these stories only on their phones so I won't try to confine myself to writing stories so it will be convenient and confining just to that of catering to phones only, lol.  I've got plenty of readers who read my stories on their phones and I've got some pretty long chapters, lol.  It's all good and like I've said there isn't any right or wrong answer to this one.  It comes down to what works best for each individual author.

[Wolfhighlander]

Thanks all, it appears that for the most part, I'm in line with a lot of you.  Most of my chapters are usually 20 or more pages and I end them where they seem to end.  Thanks for the input.

[ken barber]

I think we should have these discussion more often and it can only help us all learn and grow.

[Jeikor]

I agree. Even though I didn't comment I have read all the posts and found things to help me with my attempts at writing.

[ken barber]

Ok so a follow up question I saw some comments about paragraph length. How do you guys handle long paragraphs. Even if it seems like it should all be one paragraph like a description of the inside of a busy building? or something along those lines.

[Hunter]

Ok so a follow up question I saw some comments about paragraph length. How do you guys handle long paragraphs. Even if it seems like it should all be one paragraph like a description of the inside of a busy building? or something along those lines.

I'm sure there are writing rules involved in this regard but I tend not to focus too much on specific rules versus what looks and sounds right.  If a paragraph becomes too long there are always natural break points in them where you can split it into two separate paragraphs.  Sometimes it takes a bit of rewording or whatever, but most of the time it seems to become quickly obvious.  I usually do these things during the editing process.  When I come across longer paragraphs I look to see if it still has a nice flow to it or if it would work better if I split it apart.  When I look at a paragraph I can usually tell where I can split it with it working out well.  Like I said there are probably rules that apply, but I tend to do better by simply looking at it to see if it looks, feels, and sounds right.  Sometimes I even leave a paragraph a bit on the long side because it works so don't see a reason for breaking it apart.  Most of the times we can simply tell if it doesn't work and if this is the case it's best to take a closer look to see what you can do to make it work better.

[D'Artagnon]

I always look to the content of a given paragraph.  If it's getting the point across being long, I'll leave it long.  If it's getting muddled or lacks meter and flow, I'll break it up.  But like Hunter says, it's mostly a matter of feel.  Long paragraphs, all by themselves aren't bad.  There are times that you need a long, connected series of instructions, descriptions or actions to get a single point across. 

 

Then again, if it only takes like 17 words to get things done, so much the better.  The craft of writing is more about getting the thought across than spreading ink on the page.  Sometimes the empty spaces... have meanings all their own.

[Ricky]

I always look to the content of a given paragraph.  If it's getting the point across being long, I'll leave it long.  If it's getting muddled or lacks meter and flow, I'll break it up.  But like Hunter says, it's mostly a matter of feel.  Long paragraphs, all by themselves aren't bad.  There are times that you need a long, connected series of instructions, descriptions or actions to get a single point across. 

 

Then again, if it only takes like 17 words to get things done, so much the better.  The craft of writing is more about getting the thought across than spreading ink on the page.  Sometimes the empty spaces... have meanings all their own.

Well said.

[JoeWriterMan]

If I am writing about the interior of a building, as was the example given earlier, instead of writing one long huge paragraph to describe it all, I will break it down into smaller chunks by first describing the very first thing I see - say an impact wall.  I will describe the main thing that first strikes me. That impact wall is a 'make it or break' it for the average person or persons first looking at a house with a real estate agent, for example.

 

An impact wall usually has one or two 'outstanding' features that make or break me.  First, it has to be clean and uncluttered.  Second, furniture should be sparse.

 

Once my eyes and brain processed the impact wall, I do a quick look around to see what else catches my attention.  And so on and so forth.  It is human nature to find something that isn't 'quite right', that I find in poor taste or whatever.

 

Usually, very soon after first introducing a character, say a boy for instance, or anyone else for that matter, the most striking feature is the character's eyes.  Anything south of the border first fully and completely described is, at best, a porn 'piece', in my opinion.

 

Another factor is anticipated reader audience. I figure that readers to our sites are not all massively college educated.  Most, I assume, are average folk.  While I am quite capable of writing lengthy and highly complex technical requirements documents, it does not work in a casual, entertaining, and easy reading site such as what we mostly have here in the RU.  Despite our disclaimers, I assume our stories are read by junior high and high school students, as well.  I will not even go into my views on primary education in our school systems these days - which is a really good topic for another day, in another thread!

 

Another thing that bugs me to pieces is when a subject is repeated time and time again within a single lengthy paragraph.  Having 'building' written 40 times within a 200 to 300 to 500 word paragraph describing it is no less than yucky writing in my view.

 

Notice how I've broken up this reply.  I could have put it all into one paragraph, but how would it affect the average reader - changing subjects all around in a single paragraph is quite confusing.

[Jeikor]

I agree with Hunter and D'Artagnon. I was going to say about the same thing as Joe but He said it better than I was planning. Descriptions of things (rooms, people, buildings, etc) can always be broken down by the way we look at them such as one side than the other or top to bottom.

[Rilbur]

Ok so a follow up question I saw some comments about paragraph length. How do you guys handle long paragraphs. Even if it seems like it should all be one paragraph like a description of the inside of a busy building? or something along those lines.

I handle them very easily.  Just don't ask me how I actually decide how to handle them

 

More seriously, as with many aspects of art identifying an overly long paragraph is as much a matter of feel as it is anything analytical.  That's one of the reasons I strongly recommend everyone make a serious effort to read books and short stories from professional authors, and do it with an eye towards analyzing content and presentation.

 

Having identified an overly long paragraph, I focus on breaking it apart.  Sentences have structure, and so do paragraphs.  You can usually find points to break that structure apart, and in the process you usually wind up refining what's there to better focus on each individual piece.  It's one of the reasons revision is so important; that first pass helps get things down, it's the second pass that helps refine it into something useful.  Which is a long-winded way of saying that there is much more than simply breaking apart a paragraph with a few line returns.  Sentence structure and placement gets changed, some sentences vanish while others appear, some split apart and some merge together, and some undergo a mix of several of the various transmutations.

[Hunter]

 

Another thing that bugs me to pieces is when a subject is repeated time and time again within a single lengthy paragraph.  Having 'building' written 40 times within a 200 to 300 to 500 word paragraph describing it is no less than yucky writing in my view.

 

 

Joe has brought up many valid points and this one here is what I tend to struggle more with than the whole paragraph issue.  I'm always having to struggle with repeated words.  Sometimes it can't be helped, but more often than not it can be addressed by using the gray matter area in our brains.  At times it's only a matter of being creative.  I usually do not concern myself with that aspect of my story while writing and will address it during my editing process.  I guess it is why my revision process takes up so much more time than simply writing out my stories, lol.  I do a lot of cleaning up when I go back through my stories for the second and third time.  Grammar, spelling, sentence and paragraph structure, along with the flow of the story are all things I look at while amending my work.  During my school days I became very proficient with using a Thesaurus,  These days the synonym feature in Word document works just as fine for me.  Sometimes it takes clicking on similar words several different times to get a good word to exchange the one you begin with, but it does take care of the problem regarding repeated wording about 90% of the time.  When I can't seem to get this to work I end up having to tear apart a section just to keep it looking fresh.  Of course as with all things regarding writing sometimes things simply can't be helped, but for me it is one of those things which plagues me all the time when I write, lol. 

[ken barber]

Joe thank you very much for the excellent example.

[Ricky]

I found that repetitive words tend to happen more in narratives then dialog. Since most of what I write is done in dialog I don't have to deal with it too much myself, but when I beta I see it a lot. Oft times one can be deleted because the subject matter is implied.

i.e.

It had been a long time this time.

 

It had been a long time.

 

Using the same word more then once in a paragraph breaks the bubble of fantasy for me as I immediately stop to think how I would have reworded it.

 

Hell can be defined as a dyslexic who is also ocd.

[JoeWriterMan]

One thing I continually work on, and sometimes achieve a modicum of success with, is not repeating character names ninety thousand times within six inches of screen space :-)

 

Other authors, editors and other interested parties have suggested that I 'listen' to a chapter.  If it doesn't sound right, then it's time to take another look at what is written to make the paragraph or chapter 'flow' better.  I have yet to follow their suggestions, by the way :-0.

[Hunter]

My stories tend to have a lot of dialogue as well and it doesn't concern me so much during those times because I try to have my characters speak in a more natural type of way.  Yet with most stories they are a combination of dialogue and narrative so I still face the issue of addressing it, lol.

 

Joe, I agree with the whole character name thing as well.  That is another one of those trying use the gray matter in order to come up with some creative ways to indicate one character or another.  Writing out "Jim" this and "Jim" that gets old real quick, lol.

 

No matter how we slice, dice, or puree our stories I imagine most story writers tend to face the same types of issues.  We get better at smoothing these problem areas as we continue to write and pick up little tricks along the way.

[JoeWriterMan]

Every once in a while when I find myself doing something over and over again, or when I get into a writer's 'slump', I'll go read something out on the net.  This gets me out of the problem I'm having.

 

One more thing, is that writers are often blind to their own stories. I know I am.  I can easily read another story and find all kinds of gotchas in what they wrote, but often times cannot find my own!  And I cannot usually read my handwritten notes LOL. I do so much typing and so little handwriting that I can't even read it :-).

[Ricky]

One thing I continually work on, and sometimes achieve a modicum of success with, is not repeating character names ninety thousand times within six inches of screen space :-)

 

Other authors, editors and other interested parties have suggested that I 'listen' to a chapter.  If it doesn't sound right, then it's time to take another look at what is written to make the paragraph or chapter 'flow' better.  I have yet to follow their suggestions, by the way :-0.

Listening does have advantages. But not if you read it. Because I am SO dyslexic, I use a text to speech program. My ears hear what our minds fill in for us. I use it quite successfully in beta reading. Words often confused like lose and loose, tough, trough, though, thought. Our minds expect one thing and assume it to be correct. Our ears do not have that weakness. So eyes and ears together is formidable in beta reading.

[Ricky]

Every once in a while when I find myself doing something over and over again, or when I get into a writer's 'slump', I'll go read something out on the net.  This gets me out of the problem I'm having.

 

One more thing, is that writers are often blind to their own stories. I know I am.  I can easily read another story and find all kinds of gotchas in what they wrote, but often times cannot find my own!  And I cannot usually read my handwritten notes LOL. I do so much typing and so little handwriting that I can't even read it :-).

You mean like ink and paper? You still do that? How quaint.

Believe it or not, that's just how it was said to me when I asked for a postit note one day.

[Jeikor]

Much as i love reading the stories on here and the fact that you can buy 'books' cheaper for a reader tablet; nothing compares to sitting down with a real paper and ink book to me.

 

I still do some of my writing in a paper tablet with an ink pen before typing it into the computer.

[Ricky]

Much as i love reading the stories on here and the fact that you can buy 'books' cheaper for a reader tablet; nothing compares to sitting down with a real paper and ink book to me.

 

I still do some of my writing in a paper tablet with an ink pen before typing it into the computer.

 

TREE MURDERER! You heard it here first folks.

My wife feels the same way. She's a page turner too. She say's there's an emotional response to it. Of course I tell her to stop reading all that smut. I recanted when she said I write better sex then her romance novels. But still . . .

[Hunter]

Listening does have advantages. But not if you read it. Because I am SO dyslexic, I use a text to speech program. My ears hear what our minds fill in for us. I use it quite successfully in beta reading. Words often confused like lose and loose, tough, trough, though, thought. Our minds expect one thing and assume it to be correct. Our ears do not have that weakness. So eyes and ears together is formidable in beta reading.

Ricky I have the same problem.  My form of dyslexia gives me difficulties in regards to similarly spelled words.  All the ones listed are prime examples including things like coach versus couch.  I mean I know the difference but when writing I don't catch it.  This is one reason why I do my own editing because it helps me with my dyslexia.  I have to focus in order to find those issues.  It can be something so simple like "to" versus "too."  My mind simply doesn't see it, but when I force myself to edit and look for those mistakes I find it helps.  I purposefully do not use features such as text to speech program because I want to keep my dyslexia in check and not have it get worse.  Forcing myself to confront it and constantly stay on top of it helps out a lot.  Now this isn't to say those types of things aren't fantastic and appropriate for others.  For me it helps to face it head on and deal with it.  Ever sense I began writing stories I've gotten even better.  After I got out of school I found myself getting worse with it because in school I had to deal with it on a daily basis.  Now that I write more it has helped once again.  If you don't use your skills you lose it.

[Hunter]

TREE MURDERER! You heard it here first folks.

My wife feels the same way. She's a page turner too. She say's there's an emotional response to it. Of course I tell her to stop reading all that smut. I recanted when she said I write better sex then her romance novels. But still . . .

Well if someone says Tree Murderers remind them all of what goes into their electronics and call them a Planet murderer, lol.  Yeah I love books too versus the tablet and kindle and stuff.  There is just something special about a real life book.  I know many are like it is inconvenient, but most kids these days simply do not have a good appreciation for feeling a book in your hands.

[Ricky]

I agree to an extent. For me, at least with the program I use, it rapidly highlights the words as it reads them. So the multiple input keeps me from the backing up one word, then again one more word and then, stop, start at the beginning of this section. Instead I stay focused and absorb much more. It's more efficient and I know that my abilities have gotten better, not worse. But that's how it works for me. We all learn workarounds for our issues. I'm glad you have one that works well for you. I'm even happier that I've found one that works well for me!

[Jeikor]

TREE MURDERER! You heard it here first folks.

My wife feels the same way. She's a page turner too. She say's there's an emotional response to it. Of course I tell her to stop reading all that smut. I recanted when she said I write better sex then her romance novels. But still . . .

 

Hey!! I recycle and reuse!!!