Iraq, and what do to now.

[Emperor Roland]

You know, it's been a while since i stirred up some shit around here, so I will apologize for my lack of attention, and try to make up for all of it in one topic!

 

So... for those watching the news, i am sure you have heard about the Islamic Militant group that is current trying to forceably take over the County of Iraq.  If you have not heard about it, then please take my word for the.  ISIS (the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) Have made a large name for themselves as they take over cities, kill thousands, and even like to show their executions on the internet.  no matter what people may say, these are some bad dudes.  I would say dudettes as well, but well we all know how the woman are treated under Extreme Islam. 

 

So what is the US doing about it?  Well we MIGHT send in some planes.  and, we'll shake our fingers at them, and try to send them to bed with out dinner (that would be sanctions to those who didn't know before hand)... so not a damned thing.

 

Now i know a lot of people out there are saying that the war was bad.... that we should not have been there in the first place.  or that this is their mess, why do we need to step in?  Something that might surprise a lot of people is... i felt the same way... UNTIL... and that until was when we decided to send men and women to a foreign country.  at which point, my personal opinions became a moot point because, even though i did not like it, it did not change the fact that we were there.  and yes.. like it or not, agree with it or not.  when the decision was made to send troops into harms way, i don't give a shit if you disagree with the war, you had better support the troops.  If not, then i know of a Church in Kansas that you can go and be with others.

 

I have seen people say, when they see pictures of US military in the Iraq or Afghanistan, that they were Ashamed to be an American.  If your shame is so great, then get the fuck out.  There has only been one time that i can say that i was ashamed.... and that is when i see pictures of our service men and women getting spat on as they returned from Vietnam.  (And i wasn't even born then) 

 

Protest the war?  Go for it!  enjoy the hell out of it.  Hell i may join you.  but disrespect the troops?  If i EVER personally witness someone doing that, I WILL be in jail. 

 

You may wonder why i bring this up, in this post.  well let me explain it.

 

In Iraq we lost a total of 4,489 American Service Members. 

Officially there are 32,021 wounded.  unofficially i think the number is a LOT higher.

(per http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/)

 

These number are terrible.  and yes, i got them from an Anti war site.  mainly because i did not want anyone thinking that i was undercutting the numbers. 

 

Then we had President Obama bowing to the pressures of the Left, and pulled us out of the War before the area was secure.  guess what... like the war or not, once we went in, we should have finished it.  not leaving it like it was.  and now, the Iraqi people, the ones that almost 4500 men and women DIED defending, are being left defenseless while we sit back here and cluck our tongues thinking it's such a shame. 

 

THAT IS DISHONORING THOSE THAT FOUGHT, WERE WOUNDED, OR DIED OVER THERE!!!!!!!!!

 

I don't care if you disagreed with us going over there.  once we put boots on the ground, all the other shit should have stopped, and we should have been behind them 110%.  Don't like the fact that we were over there?  fine, take it out on the people the sent them, not the soldiers!  And now... since we left the country high and fucking dry, we are seeing EXACTLY what a lot of people said would.  This is what happens when Politicians lead a war, and not the soldiers fighting the war, or the people that are supposedly in charge who are just sucking some politicians ass, so they can get a Star.

 

Fact: we sent troops to Iraq.

Fact: We are now spitting on those soldiers by telling them that what they did over there, didn't mean a God Damned thing

 

Like the facts or not, it makes no difference.  facts don't care about personal feelings, personal beliefs, or political allegiances.  they are FACTS.

 

 

Okay, now that i got that off my chest, let the flames begin!!!  LOL.  Again, feel free to disagree with me, that is what this thread is for. 

 

 

[wjd98382]

Well taking this in reverse order. Flames are best used for roasting marshmallows to make smores. The rest well the rest is something that I at least somewhat agree with. Like the bumper sticker says if you can't stand behind our troops then try standing in front of them.

[Anjobranco]

I agree whit you, and i am going to blame the Bush familial because of that. I disagree whit the timing of the war, on the first Golf war Bush father make a mistake when he stop the war when he did, he should have finished the job he started and go all the way till Baghdad and removed Sadan. The second invasion should never happened.

 

Nobody whit some brain cells believe that the cause of the war was terrorism, it was an economic war on oil control, the American govern was never able to prove the so call allegations of weapons of mass destruction or biological weapons on Iraque.

You can only blame the USA government and the CIA for the Al-Qaeda, was them that train Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, give them money and weapons during the Russian war on Afghanistan. 

 

USA governement and the CIA should also take responsibility of the state of Afghanistan after the Russian war, they where more concern whit the coll war than the well being of the country and the people on them.

 

I have served on the army for a short period, fortunately i was never deploy on an war scenario, we are a small country and we tend to not get on wars, we had some small special unity's deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan after the war, and lost some man on Afghanistan.

 

I agree whit you, even if you disagree whit the war or the the reasons of that war you should always support your tropes there, they are your brothers and sisters of country, being less than that it is like betray them, and i hate betrayers.

 

I served on an small unity called Battalion of Health Service, it is an support unity of first medical responders, whit limited medical training, our mote is "To serve those which to the fatherland give themselves" (Servir os que a pátria se dão PT).

[ken barber]

Support the Troops and support a war are two different Things. I am avidly involved in many veterans organizations and soldier support groups. I am a volunteer at the VA helping soldiers adapt to returning to civilian life. With That said, many blunders have been made in the Middle East. Further back than even Desert Storm. The first blunder was going there in the first place.

 

If you make a mistake but continue to make the same mistake over and over again because your pride wont let you admit you made a mistake then your being a fool. And as a whole this nation is the fool. We are not wanted there, we are not needed there and we shouldn't be there. It is an insult to continue to send troops into a meat grinder because we are stubborn. Those that went before did it so others would not have to. Withdrawing from the region is not spitting on the soldiers that died or where injured. Its saying we have spilled enough blood for a people that do not respect the sacrifice. We have lost enough of our sons, brothers, Fathers, Mothers, Daughters and sisters, defending freedoms they don't want or respect.

 

If you continue to do the same thing over and over again the exact same way you will continue to get the same results. We cannot win in the middle east.  We cannot change the political atmosphere in the middle east. So why must we keep trying, PRIDE.

 

Last statement. Democracy is an experiment that can only succeed when a group if people throw off the burden of tyranny and embrace it. It cannot be force onto any nation by gun point. This has been proven time and time again in history, yet here we are continuing to do the exact same thing over and over again the exact same way and expect different results, why PRIDE. 

 

So I ask this one questions is our pride worth the lives, limbs, and minds of a generation?

[Rilbur]

Nobody whit some brain cells believe that the cause of the war was terrorism, it was an economic war on oil control, the American govern was never able to prove the so call allegations of weapons of mass destruction or biological weapons on Iraque.

You can only blame the USA government and the CIA for the Al-Qaeda, was them that train Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, give them money and weapons during the Russian war on Afghanistan. 

The excuse was terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.  The real purpose was Bush wanting to raise his popularity numbers.  Wartime presidents are popular presidents, and get re-elected.

 

Last statement. Democracy is an experiment that can only succeed when a group if people throw off the burden of tyranny and embrace it. It cannot be force onto any nation by gun point. This has been proven time and time again in history, yet here we are continuing to do the exact same thing over and over again the exact same way and expect different results, why PRIDE. 

I seem to remember installing democracy by force in, oh, Japan... Germany...  I'm sure the list could go on.

 

Surely, surely, the middle east can't be that much more difficult to civilize than those two!  

[Anjobranco]

The first golf war was a just one, going there to liberate Kwait was the right think to do. 

 

The problem was because of politics you left Sadan in power, and using an analogy, you have gone there put the stew poot on the stove and walk away, afther so many years the stew burned, and afther it burned nothink you could do would unburned it.

 

The second invasion was i alredy say it a big blunder, it was an political an economic war on oil.

 

Why the hell people do not learn whit hitory?

Christians and Muslims have been in a state of war for almost 1000 years. It satarted on the Iberian peninsula, and got worst much worst during the Christian Cruzades to the midle east

 

I seem to remember installing democracy by force in, oh, Japan... Germany...  I'm sure the list could go on.

 

Surely, surely, the middle east can't be that much more difficult to civilize than those two!  

 

Humm irony it must be it.

But i will try to give my point of view on that.

 

Germany was an democratic country before Hitler and the war, so we did not install a democracy by force, we just reinstate it. Japan had some resemblance to a democracy, so that was also not difficult.

Middle Easts countries never had nothing in the resembles of an democratic country.

 

Another thing we have to take in consideration is social and cultural developmental and religion.

 

In Europe and Japan people had more access to education, it is more easy to control a dumb country than an educated one

 

[ken barber]

We did not force Democracy on Germany they where already a democracy. Never Forget hitler was elected.

 

Japan is a Constitutional Monarchy Not a democracy.

[Rilbur]

Actually a better counter-argument would be that the cultural norms in both Germany and Japan are far, far more sane than those in the middle east or most of Africa.  The middle east has been fucked up for a long time, and Africa has been fucked up ever since the 'White Man' came in and tried to 'civilize' the 'savages'.

[ken barber]

The better question about Iraq would be if we did get our military Involved who should we support? The Shiite government? The Sunni rebels? The Sunnis are claiming that the Shiite government is oppressing them and yes the the Sunnis are being backed by AL-Qaeda, but is that because they believe in and support the Al-Qaeda ideology or are they desperate. The Semi autonomous Kurdish state has released statements saying both are in the wrong. I am confused while we don't want an Al-Qaeda back group in control do we support an oppressive Tyranny?There is now win solution in the Iraq for the US there never has been so why would we continue to fight a battle we can't win.  

 

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue… In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

[Zach Caldwell]

Right or wrong we have pulled out of Iraq. Iraq did not agree to a status of forces agreement, if I recall correctly. Thus we have no obligation as far as I can tell. Yes, our actions impacted the region, but it is also upon the Iraqi government and the population as a whole. They are now in essence a state of civil war. A war based largely on ethnic and religious grounds. Do we really have a right to get involved?

 

Do the Iraqi people have to learn to stand on their own and fight for what they believe and want for themselves, without influence from outside? Are they really going to learn to stand for themselves and fight for their rights and lives, if when anything goes wrong the United States or other countries come rushing in to "set things right"?

 

ISIS is a bad group of people. Of course we do not want to see them in control. But is that enough for us to send in troops again? I am not sure.

[Anjobranco]

Iraque is a "no win scenario".

 

They are basically cultural and religious brainwash from babies to adult.

 

It is passed from father to son and from son to grandson, they are brought to believe that everything that comes from outside there cultural or religion is evil 

 

How can you rationalize whit some one that have tunnel vision and refuse to see beyond there preconceptions.

 

There religious leaders, the true leaders of the country control it so hard that anybody that try to think or talk against them it is simply slaughter