Complete or not complete? That is the question...

[Adam]

I know I shall make myself terribly unpopular with what I'm about to write, but I'm beginning Lent by being honest with opinions and speaking out about something which concerns me greatly.

This website is a most valuable resource. There is no doubt in my mind that it contains the best library of stories in the genre on the Net.Proportionately, Castle Roland carries far more narrative suitable to younger readers than other sites. Consequently my colleagues and I who work with teenage refugees searching their new freedoms in sexual awareness now that they are in societies which permit such expression, have found stories written here to be a treasure trove.

But as these young minds have enjoyed the stories, they have been gripped by the characters the authors have created, and they have become immersed in the action and the adventure. Teens, after all, are only kids with hormones, so imagination is still rife in their lives. But as this life of wonder still exists, teens' attention span is not yet that of an adult. They crave each weekly episode of their comic book super-hero character, or the follow-up to the last TV feature. 

We were the same at 16, or 18, even 20. Now I can be patient a few weeks whilst I await someone's muse to return the ink to his pen. Even I become a tad grouchy, however, if, after a few months awaiting the news of whether so-and-so survived or what's-his-name succeeded in his plans, I still have read nothing.

What I'm saying is that we need to get a handle on this whole "In Progress" thing. I fully understand writers have a "real life" outside authorship. We all have an earning to make, presumably, or maybe a family to maintain, but once we begin a story and start to publish it, I believe we have made another commitment too. It is a commitment to our readers that we will give them a story with a beginning, a story line, and an ending. And, furthermore, it is my not entirely humble opinion, that we promise to do this in a reasonable time. 

Let me explain. 

Currently on the Castle Roland site sit 50 (exactly fifty) stories marked "in progress" but which have not had a single syllable added in over six months. Two stories (one each by Rilbur and Kyle Matthew Aarons) have had nothing added since 2014. Five more (by: Wolfwalker, Cynus, D'Artagnon, Shinichi and Ricky) have had nothing added since 2015.

Possibly the authors intended these tales to be put on hold, or something. Whatever is intended, the readers shouldn't be left hanging for four or  five years waiting for something to happen. For a teenage reader that is a lifetime.

Four other stories are over three years without additional chapters (one each by David Spowart and Parker Shaeffer and two by Al Norris )

11 stories are two years or more without any more chapters (but under three years) One each is by: Kyle Matthew Aarons, Parker Shaeffer, Jamie Haze, Andrew Todd and Billy. Six of the stories were by Multimapper.

There are 20 stories by 15 authors with between 1 year and 2 years silence and a further eight stories with over 6 months in the dark.

Undersong, Time Quake, Time May Change Me, and Billy Joe 's Journal 3, each are marked 'in progress', but appear on their last pages to suggest they are completed. 

The Kendric Saga is a special case, but I note that the author offered his readers 4 chapters in 2014, 8 in 2015, 16 in 2016, three in 2017, one in 2018, and none so far this year.

It is exciting to get a book started. Although I am new to narrative, creative writing, I have written academic stuff, and for magazines, for years. I know the buzz one gets with a new project and a fresh canvass, a crisp, virgin manuscript to etch one's own vision thereon. All too often, after the initial rush has worn off, it is easy for the writing to become more a task than a treat, no longer a novelty, more a nuisance. So, it is easy to get tempted aside by another fresh project, a nascent idea on an original tack. The former story gets pushed to a holding file, where possibly there are already older files already sitting. The rest, you know it........it's history.

Now, Castle Roland. Make the tough decisions. When is progress no longer progress, eh? I reckon 5 years without a peep can hardly constitute anything suggestive of movement. But then, I still think young......though, regrettably by bones tell me otherwise.

Ubarikiwe

Adam

[Cynus]

On 3/6/2019 at 8:17 AM, Adam said:

Currently on the Castle Roland site sit 50 (exactly fifty) stories marked "in progress" but which have not had a single syllable added in over six months. Two stories (one each by Rilbur and Kyle Matthew Aarons) have had nothing added since 2014. Five more (by: Wolfwalker, Cynus, D'Artagnon, Shinichi and Ricky) have had nothing added since 2015.

2

What do I have that's been "in progress" since 2015? I legitimately have no idea what this is, and I assume it's something improperly marked if there's a story I have there that matches this description...

UPDATE: I found 2. "Rivers of the Dead" is complete, so I assume it just didn't get changed. As for "Logan and Seth" it's a short story collection, and each short story is technically self-contained. There's always a chance for more stories in the collection, so it's still technically "In progress".

[Parker]

I have worried about having an unfinished story sitting out there gathering dust. I just got lost with it and took a break, but then there were distractions. I have meant to ask that it be labelled 'on hold', or something similar. Mountains of Memories could be removed from the library if that is preferable to the staff.

[Talo Segura]

Complete or not complete, that is the question:

Whether ‘tis ennobling for the mind to suffer

The whims and caprice of outrageous authors,

Or to make a campaign against the Sea of troubles,

And by opposing them: to rid, to abolish

Caste out; and by our action, to say we end

The heart-ache, and the thousand uncompleted books

That readers are heir to? ‘Tis a consummation

Devoutly to be wished. To read, to reach,

To read, perchance to arrive at the end; aye, there's the rub,

For in that reading of unwritten chapters, what dreams may come...

 

[ken barber]

This topic has been brought up multiple times. As far as the status on the website we typically leave it to the authors to tell us if there is a status change, IE if the author tells us the story is complete then we mark it complete if the author tells us a story is on hold the its on hold, the default status is, in progress. We have a very small number of volunteers that spend more hours than you can imagine keeping things running. Doing the research that Adam did to look at the timeline is just not our highest Priority. However since Adam has gone ahead and done that research for us we will be reaching out to those authors to ask about the status. Thank you. 

The concept of a commitment to the readers is a debatable one. The stories are, after all a gift, with no expected rewards other than a thank you. Life gets in the way and sometimes we don't have as much time for writing as we would like. Of the authors you listed we have lost touch with a couple of them, meaning they may not even be alive at this point. A few have had major career changes and one is currently homeless trying survive while couch surfing. Our commitment only goes as far we are able to to write without interfering in our own ability to survive.  I am surprised to not see my name on that list as I have a couple of unfinished stories that have not been posted in some time. 

I think back to what my Grandfather always used to say and I am sure you all are familiar with saying "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."  When an author submits a story for posting we require 5 chapters upfront (unless its a short). This is our attempt to ensure the story will not be abandoned but after that there are no contracts or guarantees that a story will be finished or even go beyond the 5 chapters.  

I apologize to the youth you are working with that some of the stories do not get updated as quickly as they would like but unfortunately the best the Castle can officially do is reach out to authors occasionally and ask them the status.  My advice, if a lot of people were to email or post on the forums more, the authors may get inspired again. It seem that the only motivation authors receive is self motivation and the encouragement from those reading the stories. 

[ken barber]

On 3/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, Parker said:

I have worried about having an unfinished story sitting out there gathering dust. I just got lost with it and took a break, but then there were distractions. I have meant to ask that it be labelled 'on hold', or something similar. Mountains of Memories could be removed from the library if that is preferable to the staff.

Parker I will ask the website guru to place "Mountains of Memories" on hold. If you prefer we pull it completely that your call but we would rather leave it up in hopes that you come back to it (soon 😉)

[ken barber]

On 3/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, Parker said:

I have worried about having an unfinished story sitting out there gathering dust. I just got lost with it and took a break, but then there were distractions. I have meant to ask that it be labelled 'on hold', or something similar. Mountains of Memories could be removed from the library if that is preferable to the staff.

Parker Mountains of Memories' status has been changed to "On Hold"

[ken barber]

On 3/8/2019 at 12:50 AM, Cynus said:

What do I have that's been "in progress" since 2015? I legitimately have no idea what this is, and I assume it's something improperly marked if there's a story I have there that matches this description...

UPDATE: I found 2. "Rivers of the Dead" is complete, so I assume it just didn't get changed. As for "Logan and Seth" it's a short story collection, and each short story is technically self-contained. There's always a chance for more stories in the collection, so it's still technically "In progress".

Cynus "Rivers of the Dead 4" is now marked complete and we also marked "Logan and Seth" Complete. 

[ken barber]

@Adam

if you would be willing to send an email to castlerolandpr@gmail.com with a list of story titles I would be happy to check into the status of those you discovered. As it is we updated Cynus' stories to complete, Parker's "Mountains of Memories" is on hold and we updated the status of "Undersong" "Time Quake" "Time May Change" and we checked the status of "Billie Joe's Journals" all have been marked complete for some time. 

[Talo Segura]

On 3/10/2019 at 7:23 PM, ken barber said:

This topic has been brought up multiple times. 

If the topic has been brought up multiple times that should point you to the fact that it has not been resolved.

On 3/10/2019 at 7:23 PM, ken barber said:

As far as the status on the website we typically leave it to the authors to tell us if there is a status change, 

That is just lazy, it means you are not occupied with running the website. @Adam pointed out a rather large list of abandoned stories and or stories with mega gaps. I think readers should know whether a story is complete or not. Is the story complete and being serialized, one chapter a week? That is very different to a global in process which doesn't tell the reader anything,  he might wait a week or five years for the next chapter.

On 3/10/2019 at 7:23 PM, ken barber said:

We have a very small number of volunteers that spend more hours than you can imagine keeping things running.

I'm sorry but that sounds like another excuse. It cannot be hardly any work at all to label completed stories and those being written over an undefined period of time and so incomplete. The reader can then decided to read or not those incomplete stories. As things are, readers get misled into following incomplete stories and so you get complaints.

On 3/10/2019 at 7:23 PM, ken barber said:

I think back to what my Grandfather always used to say and I am sure you all are familiar with saying "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."

I don't think it's a gift to give readers unfinished novels that may never be completed and to have readers waiting long periods for another chapter, it's a deception. I'd use the analogy of a Trogan horse, a wonderful story on the outside, but empty on the inside.

I think all that you are being asked to do is identify completed stories from those incomplete and that gives the reader a clear choice and ends all these complaints that keep recurring.

I remember reading one long standing author, Comicality, who was asked why he never finishes a book. Well I think he has finished a few, but he has a rather large number of on going, in process, stories where readers wait ages for new chapters. His reply was that the books are free and he doesn't owe readers anything. What he, and you who run the website, fail to see, is that you owe the readers the curtosy to let them know if a story is complete before they decide to read it. Otherwise you are suckering people in just the same as if you published five chapters for free and then asked them to pay for the rest.

I know it's an amateur hobby, writing stories, but so is Sunday morning football. If you play for an amateur team you commit to showing up on Sunday for the match. You don't disappoint your team mates and fans!

 

[ken barber]

1 hour ago, Talo Segura said:

If the topic has been brought up multiple times that should point you to the fact that it has not been resolved

 

Nor did I claim it to be resolved

1 hour ago, Talo Segura said:

That is just lazy, it means you are not occupied with running the website. @Adam pointed out a rather large list of abandoned stories and or stories with mega gaps. I think readers should know whether a story is complete or not. Is the story complete and being serialized, one chapter a week? That is very different to a global in process which doesn't tell the reader anything,  he might wait a week or five years for the next chapter.

Thank you for calling our volunteers lazy.  The website does not run its self and there is way more involved in running it than you are obviously aware of based on this comment. When a story is submitted we schedule it with the author. If we stop receiving submissions we reach out to the author but if we do not receive a response we leave it alone. This is not laziness but you can imagine how an author would feel of they came back from an extended vacation to find the status of their story has changed without their permission. This is not, regardless of your careless comments, a simple matter with a simple solution.

1 hour ago, Talo Segura said:

I'm sorry but that sounds like another excuse. It cannot be hardly any work at all to label completed stories and those being written over an undefined period of time and so incomplete. The reader can then decided to read or not those incomplete stories. As things are, readers get misled into following incomplete stories and so you get complaints.

I am sorry our volunteers do not work hard enough for you. We have three statuses "in progress" "on hold" and "complete"  There are thousands of stories on the site we do not have the time go back and look through the entire library to see if we have an incorrect status. When someone points out an error or issue to us we correct it as quickly as possible. As you can see from Adam's post most of his concerns have been addressed. I am unable to address the concerns where he only listed the author and not a story. I have asked him to follow up with me  with more detail. Or I could just leave my own stories incomplete and perpetuate the issue to take the time to go through the entire library to check statuses.

The rest of your post is an opinion that rebuts my opinion so I am not going to just leave that alone.

[Talo Segura]

12 hours ago, ken barber said:

When a story is submitted we schedule it with the author. If we stop receiving submissions we reach out to the author but if we do not receive a response we leave it alone.

You don't seem to get it. The solution is simple: when you receive a story it's either the complete story or just part of a story. So if it's the complete story you label it SERIALIZED WEEKLY (or whatever frequency), if it's only a few chapters you label it INCOMPLETE - IN PROCESS.

If you don't have time to change the in process label, just tell readers, in process means not complete, being written, and add the new label serialized weekly, which means it's complete and being published.

Don't tell me that is too much work to do. You can come up with whatever labels you like, the point is the reader knows if the story is complete before they start reading it. Might even save you work, because you don't need to contact authors who don't submit the next chapters. It's clear to everybody.

 

[ken barber]

Thank you for your input 

[roger0002]

You know, this seems to turning into a pissing contest.  

It seems to me that Talo Segura is not familiar with the fact that this website is not a pay per view website. Ergo, the people that work on it are volunteers, as in, they do the work in their spare time when they can.  It is not a job to them, it is a favor done for a group of like minded persons.  As such, there is no such thing as a "schedule" of updates.  And by "a small number" of people, what Ken means is, it is him and a couple of others that do this.  It is NOT their full time job, it is done when time is available and the necessities of life are not in conflict with getting it done.  

Additionally, as was mentioned, nobody is paying to read anything here.  The authors are not paid to present their own intellectual property here, and in more than one case, the authors are in fact engaged in full time employment that is not related in any way, shape or form with anything remotely related to this site.  Several stories are actually posted here AFTER the authors have submitted them to other sites, or posted them to their own primary sites.  

Kyle has stated multipe times that certain stories would not be receiving updates on a regular basis simply because the research involved tends to leave him semi comatose so he tends to delay the updates for when he can get multiple chapters researched and in draft form.  It just takes too much out of him, and yet, he still manages to get things posted here for everyone's enjoyment.  

Also, keep in mind that most authors are appreciative of feedback, whether positive or negative.  If you like their work, TELL THEM.  Don't just complain that they take too long to update.  These are not really "Serialized" stories.  Serials intimate that there is a regular schedule, or deadline, to get them published.  The stories here are more in the line of semi regular installments, with no set schedule for anything. 

Kyle has flat out said that certain stories will only be updated once or maybe twice a year.  He has one that he has been working on for over 15 years that he updates when he is in a certain mood.  It also happens to be one of he favorite stories to write. Those of us who have been following those stories from the beginning have learned to accept that updates come when they will and to be happy when they appear.  Yes, we drop hints that it has been a while since an update, but it is NEVER a demand.  

And as Ken said, sometimes we have to find out that one of the stories will, unfortunately, never be completed as the author as passed on.   I know of 2 that are in that status.  It doesn't make them any less interesting, just means that there will never be another update.  

Sorry if it ticks someone off, but hey, that's life.  

[Adam]

The very last thing I wished to have happen when I initiated this conversation was the evolution of a vitriolic diatribe between readers. We share different opinions as to where the balance lies between the responsibilities of the author and the proper expectations of the reader. This isn't life and death, or a question of religious faith we're debating here. Get a life!

Nevertheless, I should be less than honest if I left the question I initially posed just there, as if I am a disinterested interlocutor.

I keep on repeating the initial caveat that my opinions need to be tempered by the fact that I am very much a novice narrative author. Multi-chapter books of a non-academic nature are an area totally new to me. So I may be speaking through the top of my head - or from some bodily antipodean area of my body!

When, as writers, we put out our wares for strangers to pick up and read, it is very similar to a band playing its lead single as a promo for its new album. Likewise, a store will show something in the window to encourage you to enter to want more, and a restaurant will show a menu to get you to order food. In each case the contract begins once something is exchanged. Money for music, or goods, or a meal.

But the means of exchange doesn't always have to be money - hard cash. This is because we, humans, have intrinsic value. Our time and our talent has value. 

It is the height of hubris, however, for an author to say, "My time, my talent, is of great value. However, the mere time of a reader has no value at all". In buying into your book, in investing time and interest, and emotion in getting involved in your story, the reader has fulfilled the necessary consideration element of a contract. Then you now need to respond in a professional way, which is to fulfill the contract in, amongst other things, a timely fashion.

This doesn't mean writers have to meet strict deadlines or keep to a rigid schedule. I think very few of us don't have a "day job" and other volunteer and socially active engagements. And I imagine I'm not alone in having kids - and if you've ever had teenage boys, you'll know scheduling is totally  oxymoronic with the words teen boy! What I suggest this does require of each of us is for us to be more empathetic with our readers.

I look at the great authors I grew up loving: Kipling, Dickens, C S Lewis, Defoe, Conan Doyle and so on. Most of these originally wrote their stories episodically, periodically, or serially in magazines. Some stretched out over several years, such as the Narnia tales. So they weren't necessarily published by a rote calender of dates, or by certain press deadlines. What was anticipated was that stories would be seen often enough so that readers could keep track of the plot. Also, it was thought reasonable that, other than long sagas like Narnia (like Kendric ?) stories would complete a tale in three or four years.

Finally I think that every story published here on Castle Roland is a treasure in that it contains part of each author's unique gifts and hard work. In my move to find balance between the enthusiasm for new stories which is the essence of an author's creative craft, and his readers' rights to hope that the story he's reading will flow well, in a timely fashion, and to an ultimate conclusion, I hope everyone wins so more people read and some transition to become fresh, young authors.

.Ubarikiwe

Adam

[Emperor Roland]

On 3/15/2019 at 12:58 AM, Talo Segura said:

You don't seem to get it. The solution is simple: when you receive a story it's either the complete story or just part of a story. So if it's the complete story you label it SERIALIZED WEEKLY (or whatever frequency), if it's only a few chapters you label it INCOMPLETE - IN PROCESS.

If you don't have time to change the in process label, just tell readers, in process means not complete, being written, and add the new label serialized weekly, which means it's complete and being published.

Don't tell me that is too much work to do. You can come up with whatever labels you like, the point is the reader knows if the story is complete before they start reading it. Might even save you work, because you don't need to contact authors who don't submit the next chapters. It's clear to everybody.

 

Talo,

Unfortunately, you are not aware of the backend that we use.  It actually would be very difficult to add new tags, we have already looked into this.  Obviously it now appears to have been a bit short sighted on my part when i was discussing with the website designers how i wanted things tagged.  to me, it was only needed to be, in progress, completed, or on hold.  

this of course leads into what my next post will be about.  but simply, when an author sends us material, it is more often then not, something he or she is still working on.  in such, we have no idea when the next chapter will be sent in.  I will get more into this in my next post.  the bottom line is this.  the site is designed in a certain way based on what the needs were when we had it designed.  It may not be to the liking of everyone, but it works, and from what i am being told it works well.  is there room for improvement?  of course, but until we have volunteers with a very specific skill set, you will have to deal with what we can do.  

 

[Emperor Roland]

Adam,

What you have described is something that has been the bane and boon of the online writing community since it was first developed.  I personally have been involved in things for around 15 years now.  The debate has always been, do we publish chapters online, without the full story being finished.  The problem with posting them before it is finished, is that they may never get finished.  this is for various reasons, but they include things like the death of the author, a unavoidable life change, or as simple as, they got too busy with life.  However, the plus side, at least on the authoring side, is instant feedback.  I know that on several occasions, I have changed entire storylines, simply due to reader feedback.  On the readers side, it's much like an episodic TV show, they get to absorb the material in chunks.  

Now, as the owner of Castle Roland, I had a decision to make.  Do I allow stories on this site that i know are not completed, or do i restrict the site to only completed works?  We know what the decision was, obviously, since we are having this discussion.  However, you have to understand.  part of the 'risk' of reading stories by amateur authors who are doing this on whatever free time they may have, is the fact that we may got a long time between chapters.  or the story may never get finished.  unfortunately, unless i restrict all contributions to only stories that are completed, i think you would find that the Castle would quickly disappear.  

The authors, myself included, do the best we can, and trust me, we know that there are people out there yearning for the next episode of a story.  I know it's frustrating to not know when or if the next chapter will be released, but the alternative is for authors to not release anything till they are done with it, and frankly, speaking only for myself, I don't know if i would have the ability to write without the readers feedback.  i know it would not be as good of a story.  

give the authors time, don't annoy them, or you may find that more stories go the way of Dan Kirk's 'Dawn of Tears'.

[Wizard]

Talo is wrong to complain in the first place.

This is a free website to begin with you read for free the stories you read here.  The staff doesn't get paid as they said they are volunteers.  It cost money also to host a website in the first place so some do pay to keep this website alive.

 

Furthermore the authors are also not getting paid for their work we read here so you have to consider them also volunteers in a way.  

So Talo if you are not happy to get free stories, buy a book!!!!!

Everyone of them  authors and those taking care of the website have lives and bills to pay this is more free entertainment than anything else and I have been sometimes annoyed waiting for new chapters but that's part of choose to come to a website like this.

[Wizard]

Btw DJ Thomas stories have not had any new chapters in nearly 2 years so maybe you can get in touch with him to find out more about those stories.

Some authors I have read in the past that suddenly vanished and stop posting, I always worry they might have had a grave accident or died. For example scribe1971 from another website vanished for well over a year and a half even if its not from here so maybe it might be a good idea when you have time to leave a note to all your inactive authors to find out if they are okay!

Thanks for the site btw.

[D'Artagnon]

Yeah, uh, I'm about to be homeless, i have almost no money at the moment, my one car is still in the shop awaiting repairs, my other car payment is just under $400 a month.  I make maybe $500 a week, and pay about a third of that out in gas for my job, a paper route.  My boyfriend works two jobs and all our money has gone into repairing the Jeep this past month.   And it still isn't working.  Anything that went wrong around here was our fault, even if there was no proof.  So, I'm not likely going to be writing a whole lot the next several months.  It is complicated being broke, poor, stuck in a dead end job and without a place to just hang your hat to sleep.

I don't know what to do.  I don't have a lot of options.  Just when things were looking up... something completely left field comes up and I get the blame. 

Benji looks to me for answers and I just don't have any.

So, if it seems silent from me for a while, that's why.  Thought you'd like to know.

Edited April 7, 2019 by D'Artagnon
typos

[Parker]

in my defense, the only thing I have that is labeled 'in progress' is my Noah Osgood series. This is a collection of 9stories, each complete in itself, that may be increased by one or two more episodes. There is probably a better label for them than 'In Progress'.

[Jay]

Life has a funny way about it. Once you think everything is under control it hits you with something new. They will always be some complainers. You can not make everyone happy or even content. Yet it is ones wish to do so as a human. We have our limits and we fall behind on our projects. This never the less dose not take away from the work presented. As it was said this is a free site. That works off the generous donations of its readers. We should be more than happy to have this site and the stories we read free of charge. I for one are grateful for this opportunity. If no one has said it as of late. Thank you to all those that contribute to CR.

[Jay]

Dear bother D'Artagnon I saw your post of your present position. I am truly sorry to hear of the hardship you are going threw. My most kindest thoughts and wishes for a turn if events to your favor. I for one have enjoyed your stories you have presented here on CR. I am sure we all understands life gets in our way. The blame dose not lay with anyone. There is no blame to go around. It is one voice of complaint which is their right. One dose not in any way take away all you and others have given us followers and members to CR community. Thank you for what you have done. I hope everything can work out for you but until then most kindness of thoughts for you.

[Jay]

On 4/6/2019 at 11:20 PM, Wizard said:

Btw DJ Thomas stories have not had any new chapters in nearly 2 years so maybe you can get in touch with him to find out more about those stories.

Some authors I have read in the past that suddenly vanished and stop posting, I always worry they might have had a grave accident or died. For example scribe1971 from another website vanished for well over a year and a half even if its not from here so maybe it might be a good idea when you have time to leave a note to all your inactive authors to find out if they are okay!

Thanks for the site btw.

That I think is a wonderful idea. That may let them know their work is still being enjoyed. It n may sadly bring bad news as well in such an event. We can remember the talent we have lost. Thank you so much for sharing this grate idea. I sincerely hope it is followed upon.

[Billy Martin]

I offer no excuse for none is owed. I am sorry if you started my story, Field of Dreams, only to be disappointed in the lack of updates. I again offer no explanation, for none is owed. I only respond to this complaint because my name was mention. If one of you want more from me, send me an application for employment and your rate of pay, and I'll consider it. And a thank you to the staff of CR for the obvious thankless jobs you do for us.